cant cam over bolt

wayupnorth

wayupnorth

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so, my father and myself started reloading a year or 2 ago.
we have been plugging away at it, getting some excellent results and having a lot of fun while doing it.
recently my dad has been doing up ladders for all his 'good' rifles and he ran into a issue.

while out shooting one of his ladders he stopped being able to load the odd round into the rifle.
it would not cam over when closing.
he came back to my place, talked about it, checked to make sure the primers where not sticking out.
measured the chamber jump with the bullet on a stick thingy.
then he loaded up a bunch more ladders and we went out and today around 70% of his loaded ladder would not load into the rifle, would not cam over.

we are stumped.
what we are going to do is the following.
1) i have the same rifle so tomorrow i will try to load the round into my rifle to make sure that its not his rifle - not a rifle specific issue.
2) i have one of those bullet competitor kits but have never used it, so we will watch a video on that kit and measure up his rounds.

as we are not seeing any marks on the bullet tips i dont think the bullets are too far out and touching the lands and grooves, plus the fact that we measured that and set them back.

im thinking maybe its a shoulder issue?
either the resizer isnt lubed enough and is pulling the necks to long?

im not sure, just spit balling.

any ideas?
 
Your brass was not resized all the way. i.e die did not touch the shell holder when resizing and the shoulder was not pushed back far enough. So basically you just neck sized. Now, all the brass that does chamber was probably fired in his rifle. The brass that doesn’t fit may have been fired in your rifle.
Since he has gone to all the work of making up these loads for the ladder test it would be a shame to pull them all apart to start over. So, order yourself a Redding Body die. You can run loaded rounds through these and it will make sure the body of the case is sized properly and the shoulder is pushed back to within spec. Don’t forget to use lube when using a body die.
Even brass that is only fired in one rifle and neck sized only will run into this problem. After 3-4 loadings it will start to get a little tight and a full length resize is in order.
A body die is worth its weight in gold if you have several hundred rounds that need to be squeezed a little bit.
 
Yes, you’ve got to ‘bump’ the shoulders back at least a thou even when using match sizing dies otherwise it creeps up and then causes bolt closure difficulties.
While you’re at it check overall length of the case. Might need a trim. Last but not least if your sizing die has moved slightly you may be over sizing and creating a nearly invisible bulge at the junction of the case and the start of the shoulder. That will stop bolt closure also. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t, go slow and pay attention. Little changes make a difference. If you’re only into your 2nd year of reloading you will be dealing with more unexpected discoveries in the future…good luck and take baby steps. Cheers
 
As Maynard posted you likely need to bump shoulder a couple thou.
I had to do this to a couple hundred rounds when I re-barreled my rifle. I removed the pin and collet from my Lee F/L die and it worked perfect.
 
Are you full-length sizing you're brass?
Are you shooting the same cartridge and mixing all the brass in the same pile?
Did you check COAL to assure that the bullet is not jamming into the rifling?
Have you trimmed you're brass to .010 below case length?
Same cartridge, different rifle, will have a different COAL.....ogive measurement.
 
Was the brass previously fired in his gun? If not it might have been shot on a larger chamber than his and now isn't resizing down enough.

If that is the issue, they make small base dies to address this.
 
All of the above, with one exception.

Your brass cases may need to be annealed as well, especially if neck resizing only.

What you describe is not uncommon, and as the brass fire hardens from repeated loading/shooting, even if you're neck sizing, with a bit of shoulder bump, it may not stay resized.

I set up my dies to bump the shoulder back a couple of thousandths every time I reload, partial resize of shoulder area and OAL of case.

You may have another issue, which would mean your cases need to be "trimmed"

Even with neck resizing and partial resizing, brass does flow during firing.

You're case dimensions may all be OK, other than the neck has grown in length and is too long to fit in the chamber.
 
ok.
lots of info here!
let me give some more of our info.
so my dad and myself we have the same rifle, Browning 300WSM.
we purchased them at the same time only difference being mine is a left hand.
so we totally understand that each rifle is different.

so currently our procedure for dealing with brass is this.
all brass goes into a bin for that caliber and once its full we do up a batch - de-prime, wash, lube, resize with Hornady full Length Custom Grade Die, 2nd wash, trim to the COAL number, then into the ready to use bin for that caliber.

we have a bullet comparitor gauge (stick) and have measured both of our rifles and and they are very close to the same - i believe they are 0.01 different if my memory is right.

now, i did up a ladder for the round i wanted for moose hunting and found a load that worked perfect for my rifle right off the hop and i reloaded a batch of those and i was done.
my dad - who is bored, has been picking up different brands and weights of bullets and trying them with different powders to see if there is something that works better for deer or what not, hence him doing all these ladders.

so what did we do today:

1) today i took the ladders that he loaded and i tried to chamber all the rounds in my rifle.
all the rounds that chambered in his chambered in mine just fine.
all the rounds that DID NOT chamber in his DID NOT chamber in mine either.
so that rules out this being a his rifle is broke scenario i believe.
being that both our rifles are very close in chamber size i was not suprised to see the ones that failed to cam over in his rifle did not cam over in mine.

2) i remembered i had a GO / NO GO gauge for 300WSM. I went through the box off ammo (the ladder) and every single one of them worked in the GO gauge - both the ones that would cam over and the ones that would not cam over with the exception of 1 round that was a NO GO. im chalking that 1 round up as an flyer.

So, that is where we are at.
we just chatted and agreed that it sounds like this is a neck length problem.
we think that its so small of a number that we cant see it - as in all the rounds measure the same and we cant see a difference between them.
but why?
and why now after 2 years?

do these Hornady Dies not full case resize like they say they do?
full disclosure - i was not there when i dad has been doing his ladder loading and he is getting older..... so......

my thoughts are to go out and take some of the brass we have in the ready to use bin and measure COAL again, check the trim, then reload with my load and try in the rifles to see if they cam over.
if that works then maybe do the same but with some of his TTSX rounds and see if they cam over as well.
my thinking is that if they work then maybe he set up the dies wrong when he did them?
if I do them and they dont work then its a die issue?

thoughts?
 
i should say, i believe we are full length resizing and not just shoulder bumping but i may be wrong.
we are running them through the Hornady Fully Length die, which should by the name be a full resizing if im correnct.
 
here's a question:

could all this be simply an issue of the lip where the brass ends.... the end of the neck where we trim at?
i ask because we noticed that the rounds i did i heavily chamfered mine and the transition between the bullet and brass is almost no feel.
but the rounds my dad did he didn't chamfer them at all really and the transition is VERY prominent.
in fact he just hand sanded one of the rounds to take off that lip and the round now cycles into the rifle with no issue.

could this all just simply be a issue of not chamfering the outside of the trimmed edge enough???
 
Something as simple as using a different shell holder from one time to the next may not bump the shoulder back enough to allow the round to chamber. Mixed brass will also not be the same hardness and cause sizing issues. You did not mention if the press handle cammed over when the die touched the shell holder. Brass will spring back slightly when resizing and sometimes holding the press handle down of a few seconds when the case is fully inside the die can solve that problem.
Not all factory rifles are chambered exactly the same but one thing for sure both rifles have lawyer proof chambers. Meaning that I doubt it would be short chambered and even if your brass is .020" over the trim to length it will likely chamber. I have had no problems chambering rounds that were .025" longer than trim to length in a match chamber.
Take a sharpie marker and paint up the whole round from the ogive of the bullet to the base. Chamber the round and wherever the sharpie ink is rubbed off is where your problem is. Take the firing pin assembly out of your rifle and you can do this right in you reloading room without having to wear hearing protection. lol
 
300WSM....I think that is the issue right there.
There is a point the web stretches too much to chamber, and that's likely all it is.
Small base dies may work or may not, it's basically the section of brass (web) that the die doesn't reach.
Smoke the brass or color it with a marker, chamber it, and you will see where it is hanging up in the chamber.
 
I was going to say .300WSM before you said it. The short brass and sharp shoulder angle makes the brass very stiff. Set you dies with a strong cam over at the top of the stroke. It has happened to me before. I had the die set with my "normal" cam over and it would not resize enough. I noted that even at the top of the stroke, with some cam over, there was still a gap between the shell holder and the bottom of the die. More cam over was needed to force the brass to form into the die. Problem was solved after that.
 
wayupnorth said:
i should say, i believe we are full length resizing and not just shoulder bumping but i may be wrong.
we are running them through the Hornady Fully Length die, which should by the name be a full resizing if im correnct.
Click to expand...

When you set up your dies, did you measure your shot brass to get a datum point of how much to full length size to?

You need to measure your shot brass to get the shoulder length, and then set up your dies to actually size your shoulders down. Check your sized brass in your chamber, before even loading anything and see if it fits. Do this for both rifles and you may find that you are not so close to each other in shot brass, and then segregate your brass.
IF you anneal between every firing the shoulder bumps will be more consistent, and if you don't you will want to watch your shoulder bumps and adjust a bit more as your shot count on brass goes up. The brass will get "work" hardened and spring back more, so will not bump as well the higher count you go up.

I suspect this is your problem, even before you actually load any rounds.

You shouldn't really need to worry about your COAL, (cartridge over all length) from the base to bullet tip, and you need to measure to from base to ogive. The rounded portion of the bullet where it will make contact in your action. https://www.accurateshooter.com/bal...ive” is,diameter straight section — the shank.

This may be different with both rifles as well, and you can reload to each. You may get lucky and have them "close enough" were they still work well in both rifles.
 
wayupnorth said:
here's a question:

could all this be simply an issue of the lip where the brass ends.... the end of the neck where we trim at?
i ask because we noticed that the rounds i did i heavily chamfered mine and the transition between the bullet and brass is almost no feel.
but the rounds my dad did he didn't chamfer them at all really and the transition is VERY prominent.
in fact he just hand sanded one of the rounds to take off that lip and the round now cycles into the rifle with no issue.

could this all just simply be a issue of not chamfering the outside of the trimmed edge enough???
Click to expand...
Are the cases just too long and need to be trimmed a wee bit more for Dads rifle than yours perhaps?
 
I has this issue milled a thou off the top of the shell holder to get it up into the sizer to “bump shoulder” gotta be careful getting to much bump goin on! Best way to avoid this is buy new brass or factory ammo and shoot it in one rifle!!
 
OP

You are going round and round and round in circles.

The problem is a headspace problem with your sized cases. STOP loading up ammo and size the damn cases until they fit into the chamber without a bullet seated.

NONE of the things you have discussed would cause the problem you describe. The only thing that would hard stop the bolt closing is a case that is sized too long ... ie a headspace problem
 
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