Carcano Ammunition & Accuracy

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The_Champ

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I thought I might solicit a few opinions, hopefully expert, on Carcano rifle accuracy.

I own a Carcano cavalry carbine, 1930's production, that has certainly been there and back. However the action is still safe and workable. The bore isn't pretty, but seems to have sufficient rifling. One of my Milsurp collection rules is that the gun must be shootable. The cavalry carbines are wonderfully miniscule and handy, and to hold one in your hands really helps you understand their popularity with soldiers, and their utility.

All of that being said, the accuracy of the rifle is downright awful. Firing at a 2 x 3 foot target at 50 yards I can only just keep them on the paper. About 2 out of 20 rounds on paper show signs of instability with a slightly long or wide bullet hole in the target, although none seem to be tumbling completely and key holing. I don't believe there is a safety issue at my range as there are very tall berms as a backstop.

My layman's understanding is that 6.5x52 ammo originally used .268 caliber bullets however modern manufactures take a short cut and use more common .264 caliber bullets in their loads. I've been shooting PPU ammo, which is about the only new manufacture stuff around, and measured the bullets at .264.

So my question is what sort of accuracy have other shooters seen in their Carcanos, and what ammo did they use? Is anyone producing properly sized .268 cal bullets? Is it possible I'm looking at a bore errosion problem and not an ammo problem?

Thanks!
 
Hornady was producing larger 6.5 bullets for the Carcano but I am unsure if they still are. Personally I have had absolutely horrible results with standard 6.5 bullets (constant keyholing etc.), but when I got my hands on some surplus pulled bullets (bought off a private seller on the EE) I got much better results (tightened up to 2-3" groups). I never did work out the best load for them before I ran out, guess that's just the way things end up.
 
I'm shooting my m41 Carcano with .269 sized lead bullets in neck sized cases and I can easily make 1.5 groupat a 100yrd .On a good day with proper light I can do 3/4-1".

Limiting factor are sights-they are not meant for precision shooting,they are battle sights and for that I'm sure they worked perfectly fine.

NOE molds in US does molds of proper size and sizing dies and top punches can be ordered as well.
 
The_Champ said:
I thought I might solicit a few opinions, hopefully expert, on Carcano rifle accuracy.

I own a Carcano cavalry carbine, 1930's production, that has certainly been there and back. However the action is still safe and workable. The bore isn't pretty, but seems to have sufficient rifling. One of my Milsurp collection rules is that the gun must be shootable. The cavalry carbines are wonderfully miniscule and handy, and to hold one in your hands really helps you understand their popularity with soldiers, and their utility.

All of that being said, the accuracy of the rifle is downright awful. Firing at a 2 x 3 foot target at 50 yards I can only just keep them on the paper. About 2 out of 20 rounds on paper show signs of instability with a slightly long or wide bullet hole in the target, although none seem to be tumbling completely and key holing. I don't believe there is a safety issue at my range as there are very tall berms as a backstop.

My layman's understanding is that 6.5x52 ammo originally used .268 caliber bullets however modern manufactures take a short cut and use more common .264 caliber bullets in their loads. I've been shooting PPU ammo, which is about the only new manufacture stuff around, and measured the bullets at .264.

So my question is what sort of accuracy have other shooters seen in their Carcanos, and what ammo did they use? Is anyone producing properly sized .268 cal bullets? Is it possible I'm looking at a bore errosion problem and not an ammo problem?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

From my reading on this issue, the carbines themselves should be using the .268 bullets for full accuracy, however once you get into an M41 model, this problem was rectified and they can perform fine with the smaller PPU bullets. I could dig up the source on this (don't quote me on the specifics) but I read there were variances in the chamber/barrel or some such thing between the 2 rifles.

I tested this myself and my M41 shoots lovely 2ish inch groups at distance. Figuring out the sights was a pain however, as once user here told me: aim at the nuts to hit him in the heart!
 
I have a M41 and I shoot the Privi rounds.

I too have had lousy results. I have tried adjusting for the battle sights but haven't had much luck either.

Usually the bores are well used in these rifles and I am sure that is part of the issue.

Best of luck to you.
 
Accuracy can most certainly be had on these guns! Lots of stuff on Youtube, and a knowledgeable older gent has some fantastic comparison vidoes you can hunker down and watch for more in depth details.

I may also do my own comparison using the Prvi ammo in a carbine vs M41 and post the results here.
 
The Carcano 91/38 cavalry carbine, as I recall from my readings a while ago, is a cut-down 41 barrel which has progressive rifling and cutting it down does not stabilize the bullet. Also, the land to land measurement is about .268 and the pre-war bullets were less than that. The Carcano has earned a bad reputation for accuracy where in fact it is undeserved.

Hornady does make a 160 grain .268 bullet which provides the best accuracy and ironically it is the same as used by the (supposed) JFK assassin Oswald 54 years ago tomorrow using his 4X scoped 91/38 Carcano, ironically the cheapest listed in the ad which he used to place the order. Some theories suggest he used the iron sights and not the scope which the FBI during their tests had to shim to obtain some level of accuracy.

The cartridges he used had 160 grain .268 bullets were American-made by Western Cartridge company.
 
A friend has a carcano amd fired it for the first time with the hornady 268s and was holding about 3" at 50 yards on the bench using irons. He had the side mounted grenade launcher version so the added weight cut down on recoil a bit.
 
Tyler said:
PPU (Prvi) makes the larger 6.5 rounds. Tradex should have some in stock for a good price.
Click to expand...

If by larger you mean .268 diameter bullets, I think you are incorrect. I've measured my PPU 6.5 x 52 ammo, and the bullets are .264, just like more common 6.5mm rounds, like the 6.5 x 55. I suspect this is causing my accuracy issue.
 
Cameron SS said:
A friend has a carcano amd fired it for the first time with the hornady 268s and was holding about 3" at 50 yards on the bench using irons. He had the side mounted grenade launcher version so the added weight cut down on recoil a bit.
Click to expand...

I watched the Forgotten Weapons video on that Carcano bullet trap rifle grenade launcher. Quite an amazing contraption!
 
The_Champ said:
If by larger you mean .268 diameter bullets, I think you are incorrect. I've measured my PPU 6.5 x 52 ammo, and the bullets are .264, just like more common 6.5mm rounds, like the 6.5 x 55. I suspect this is causing my accuracy issue.
Click to expand...

All 6.5mm rifles use a .264 bullet EXCEPT the Carcano which needs a .268 bullet for accuracy because they made deeper grooves in the rifling.
 
15567 said:
The Carcano 91/38 cavalry carbine, as I recall from my readings a while ago, is a cut-down 41 barrel which has progressive rifling and cutting it down does not stabilize the bullet. Also, the land to land measurement is about .268 and the pre-war bullets were less than that. The Carcano has earned a bad reputation for accuracy where in fact it is undeserved.

Hornady does make a 160 grain .268 bullet which provides the best accuracy and ironically it is the same as used by the (supposed) JFK assassin Oswald 54 years ago tomorrow using his 4X scoped 91/38 Carcano, ironically the cheapest listed in the ad which he used to place the order. Some theories suggest he used the iron sights and not the scope which the FBI during their tests had to shim to obtain some level of accuracy.

The cartridges he used had 160 grain .268 bullets were American-made by Western Cartridge company.
Click to expand...

It would make sense with that silly progressive rifling that if you used cut down rifle barrels, the twist rate might be lower and cause bullets not to stabilize, but surely they would have realized this and not produced rifles that way? Either way, my particular carbine is a 1936 production model 1891.

By the way I think we should all agree that there are way too many different Caracno models!!! C&Rsenal has a good breakdown of them here:

http://candrsenal.com/terminology-a-quick-and-dirty-guide-to-carcano-rifle-models/
 
The_Champ said:
If by larger you mean .268 diameter bullets, I think you are incorrect. I've measured my PPU 6.5 x 52 ammo, and the bullets are .264, just like more common 6.5mm rounds, like the 6.5 x 55. I suspect this is causing my accuracy issue.
Click to expand...

I was referring to the projectiles. Pull the .264 and seat the .268's. Should be enough neck tension left over to hold the rounds in place, so you wouldn't have to re-size. Roll crimp if there's a cannelure.

Easy peasy.

Link: https://www.tradeexcanada.com/content/65mm-bullets-carcano268-139gr-fmjbt-prvi-priced-100
 
Tyler said:
I was referring to the projectiles. Pull the .264 and seat the .268's. Should be enough neck tension left over to hold the rounds in place, so you wouldn't have to re-size. Roll crimp if there's a cannelure.

Easy peasy.

Link: https://www.tradeexcanada.com/content/65mm-bullets-carcano268-139gr-fmjbt-prvi-priced-100
Click to expand...

Ah I understand now. Any idea why PPU would produce a loaded 6.5x52 round using a .264 bullet, and then sell separate bullets at the proper diameter?
 
The Privi bullet are .264 and the wrong size for a Carcano or most 6.5 MS 1903 sporters that both require the larger bullet.
 
The_Champ said:
It would make sense with that silly progressive rifling that if you used cut down rifle barrels, the twist rate might be lower and cause bullets not to stabilize, but surely they would have realized this and not produced rifles that way? Either way, my particular carbine is a 1936 production model 1891.

By the way I think we should all agree that there are way too many different Caracno models!!! C&Rsenal has a good breakdown of them here:

http://candrsenal.com/terminology-a-quick-and-dirty-guide-to-carcano-rifle-models/
Click to expand...

Not all carcano models had the gain twist rifling and it can be pretty accurate with right ammo.

Having so many carcano models make collecting them interesting IMHO
 
Wasn’t the carcano rifle the one that oswald assassinated kennedy with?
I always wondered how an old shot out italian milsurp could make that shot.
It resulted in the gun control act of 1968, ffls and the end of mail order guns in the usa.
 
torontogungal said:
Wasn’t the carcano rifle the one that oswald assassinated kennedy with?
I always wondered how an old shot out italian milsurp could make that shot.
It resulted in the gun control act of 1968, ffls and the end of mail order guns in the usa.
Click to expand...

Yes, and exactly 54 years ago today. Oswald used Western Cartridge ammo it was 160 grain but I am not sure whether it was .264 or .268 from my readings in the past. The .264 would have a about a 10 inch spread at the distance Oswald fired that the slowly moving target and .268 about 3 inch.

Some expert marksmen were able to replicate the shots in the 8 to 9 seconds for three shots but only a few. The scope was left side mounted and some assert he used the iron sights.
 
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