Carcano w/ German markings - info please!

student of history

student of history

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Hello Gentlemen,

Recently a friend of mine acquired this Italian Carcano on a bit of a whim. Upon closer inspection he was puzzled to find German markings on it. Not being a milsurp guy he asked me to help him identify exactly what he has but I'm a bit embarrassed to say that I don't know much about it either because Carcano's aren't really my thing. Could some of you more knowledgeable Carcano collectors please give me a bit of info on it? In addition, what may it be worth? He tells me he isn't going to part with it but is just wondering so that he has piece of mind.

Thanks for everyone's time!

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It's a fake WaA stamp. There are probably thousands of faked "Nazi" Carcanos out there. They usually have some sort of Nazi mark applied to them so they will sell for more money...

The WaA is in the wrong place, and to my knowledge, there is no WaA318, but 319 has been found on authentic Nazi Landmines!!! LOL!

At least it's a nice Carcano. Just ignore the fake stamp.
 
Agreed, fake, should not be a Waa. Waa indicates where it was made, and I'm not aware of Terini being under Nazi control.

What you should see would be a HZa - which is a rebuild mark, and is usually on the wood. Ingolstadt is where most Carcano's were done (as were Polish Mausers fyi).
 
Too bad about the fake waa, but otherwise it's a pretty nice Fucile M91 and they're not all that common, so it's not a total loss.
 
Made at Terni in 1918, so it's a 6.5x52.

These can be a very accurate rifle and this is rather a nice specimen and it HAS the Bayonet! That alone is unusual.

Your buddy can get brass (Partizan) and the correct-diameter slugs (Hornady) from Trade-Ex. Everyone (including Lee) makes dies.

These are a nice, lightweight, low-recoiling rifle capable of accuracy at ranges you would not believe. That big, long bullet REALLY holds its own in wind.

See if there is a little stamp of a picture of two crossed rifles and a target, left side of the barrel, at the chamber, just above the wood. If it is there, you have a rifle designated for match and sniper use. One turned up here during the Registry, on its way to the dump: really excellent specimen, perfect bore. It never did get to the dump. It will be back on the range when the world melts.

Carcanos are FAR better rifles than they have been given credit for being. It's nice that they are getting some respect at last.
 
Thanks for all the quick replies! I called my buddy and told him what you fine gentlemen explained and he told me that the WaA is actually 518. Does that change anything?
 
student of history said:
Thanks for all the quick replies! I called my buddy and told him what you fine gentlemen explained and he told me that the WaA is actually 518. Does that change anything?
Click to expand...

To my knowledge there is no known German part with WaA518... Anyways... If it was a captured Carcano, it still should not have a WaA on the top of the receiver. Just like Stoggie said, it should have a HZa stamp on the wrist of the stock.

It's a nice Carcano, but its been humped, and should therefore actually be worth less than if it didn't have that fake stamp.

Tell yer buddy to buy the dies, brass, and bullets and git shootin'!
 
smellie said:
Made at Terni in 1918, so it's a 6.5x52.

See if there is a little stamp of a picture of two crossed rifles and a target, left side of the barrel, at the chamber, just above the wood. If it is there, you have a rifle designated for match and sniper use. One turned up here during the Registry, on its way to the dump: really excellent specimen, perfect bore. It never did get to the dump. It will be back on the range when the world melts.
Carcanos are FAR better rifles than they have been given credit for being. It's nice that they are getting some respect at last.
Click to expand...

About the marking of the cross rifle sorry but after the last books published in Italy and Germany we had found the real meaning of it. During the making process of the rifles the 10% of the weapons made ( that kind of marking was use also in the Short Moschetti models for Cavalry and Special Tropps with 45 centimeters long barrels a little short for sniper rifles). The cross rifles are presents also in the Vetterli rifles in 10,4x48R Italian. The strange markings is a simple test fire against a target at 200 meters were 6 shoots must be in a groups of 5/6 centimeters with standard ammunitions. At the end the rifles with the cross rifles are not the most precise but the only one of a Lot tested before to send them to the troops.

regards
 
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Thank you for clarifying that, RussiaBerdan!

The GOOD part i that at least we know they were tested and we have an idea what their MINIMUM accuracy was when tested.

The MAXIMUM is therefore up to US and the AMMO.

I have a Model 41 here which shoots 1 MOA if you feed it what it likes. You can NOT sneer at that..... in a $56 rifle!

And it DOESN'T have the mark!
 
Just to be clear on the Waa, here is a list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffenamt_codes
http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/generalstorage/piclinks/WAAE.pdf

518 never existed.

Just to be clear about Waa's; focus on this statement taken from the above PDF:
Commonly referred to as “Waffenamts”, they were inspection stamps which
identified the item as being inspected and passed, at some stage of its manufacturing process
for the German Army.

The key word is manufacturing. That barrel was not manufactured during WWII, and was not manufacured by the Nazis. Suffice it to say, if its a captured weapon with a Waa - its very likely a fake.

If its a rebuild/rework/repair it would have a HZa stamp. If it was test fired and approved, it would have the Nazi eagle over a swastica. I have seen these on captured weapons, but typically Nazi used arms were not re-proofed and just used as is.
 
Just was checking out the WaA518 to see if it was used on anything... (I know the Waffenampt and Maker studies do not have it listed)

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Many items have been misidentified as WaA518, only to be later found to be 519 (usually on K98 Bayos and MG42 grips etc) but I have found evidence of WaA518 on of all places MG34/42 Gurtrommel 34 Trager (The Gurtrommel is a drum that carries a length of MG34/42 belt, loaded with ammo, and the trager is the drum carrier)!! The carriers are maker marked "959" and dated "43". Some of them have a WaA stamped above that, which appears to be WaA518... some of them do not have the WaA. I have one of these Carriers and basket assemblies at home with my MG34, I will check and see if mine has that same WaA and post results.

Just so you know StudentOfHistory, this still means your buddies Carcano is not Nazi captured, but it could be that the guy who did it had a fake punch, or a real punch from a German Factory, and used it to mess up that Carcano. (Because there is no doubt a manufacturer of MG34/42 drum carriers was definitely not in the business of inspecting captured Italian arms...)
 
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I used to own some Italian Carcanos. If memory serves me correct, some of their WWII years productions used Beech wood from Germany, I thought I had one as such. However I am unaware of German waffenampts etc. Although finished stock numbers could have been struck in German factory. Most likely all you will see is just Italian fancy crests on the wood(look nice) and factory names elsewhere.
 
This thread has taken an interesting turn haha!

Thanks for all the helpful info Desert_Fox! I did some research of my own.. because I'm not a stranger to WWII German militaria (just Italian haha) and found certain mess kits which were also marked with the 519 WaA stamp. It doesn't make much difference because I think we can all agree that the stamp on the rifle isn't original based on its construction and placement but it's just interesting to note the 519 WaA stamp on particular things because it's a really uncommon one.
 
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