Carcano's for dummies!

Alfonso

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Ok, so as my WWII collection grows I've realised it's time to pick up something Italian. I don't know very much about the Carcano's and see many of them on the EE forum but don't know where to start. So my question is if you could have one (or your first one) for your WWII collection which one would it be and why?

Thanks a bunch
 
ORIGINAL was the Fucile 91, the Rifle. Turnbolt, 6.5x52, 6-round rversable Mannlicher clip (developed for this rifle originally), distinctive Carcano safety mech (altered by the Japanese into the Arisaka safety), modified Mauser action, controlled feed, 32-inch tube, light recoil and accurate at a much longer range than the cartridge might suggest.

Its more common variants include the TS, the original Special Forces rifle, with its 21-inch barrel and the Cavalry Carbine with its 17-inch tube. There also were various special-purpose shorties. These were the common variants through to the founding of the New Roman Empire by Il Duce Benito Mussolini in 1922 and for several years afterward, although development continued in several directions.

It is important to understand that Italy was just about flattened out by World War One, despite being on the winning side. If you look at a map, you will see that there was nowhere for them to expand TO. This is the genesis of the North African Empire (which had been Roman, thus Italian, 1500 years before) and the AOI (Africa Orientale Italiana, carved out of Ethiopia and Eritrea), which lasted only 6 years but marked its old Italian rifles quite clearly.

One direction had to do with ammunition, so Italy adopted the Model 38 series of rifles (distinguished by very simple rear sights) in 7.35x52 (taking a 128-grain, .300" bullet) but otherwise mechanically identical to the older rifles. These were adopted in 1938.

Another direction was the development of a semi-auto rifle, something which Italy had been working on since the Cei Gas Rifle of 1903, also called the Cei-Rigotti. Tests continued through the 1920s and 1930s and culminated in the adoption of the Armaguerra Model 39, a semi-locked, semi-blowback Revelli-system rifle, in 1939. Partly because of the new rifle, production of Model 38s in 7.35mm was not terribly great. Armaguerra had to build a new factory in Cremona to handle production of the beautifully-made automatic rifle and this took TIME. By the time the factory had made perhaps 100 rifles in 7.35 and 6.5mm combined, Italy was embroiled in World War Two. The new semi-auto rifle was put OUT of production and the plant used for making parts for Carcanos.

The Model 38 series (Fucile, TS, Carabina) all were converted to the old 6.5 round and produced as quickly as possible. These, with older rifles, were the mainstay of the Italian forces in War Two.

Note that proper Carbines had the bayonet built-on at the muzzle when they were made. Many were sold here with the bayonets lopped. TS rifles had a 21-inch barrel. You need a longer barrel to get the best performance out of the cartridge, being that the proper Ballistite powder is not available. A double-base powder such as ALLIANT's RL-7 or RL-15 MIGHT help the problem; Ballistite was double-based.

Perhaps the BEST of the late Carcanos was the Modelo 1941, a 6.5 rifle with a 27-inch barrel. Relatively short and lightweight, it is a truly great bolt rifle. It is the ONLY rifle of Carcano design to have constant-pitch rifling; ALL other Carcanos have gain-twist rifling with wide lands and deep grooves. The barrels last and last, poor shooting generally being down to American loading-books which tell you to use a .264 slug in a barrel with .268 grooving. Use the right slugs and Carcanos are scary accurate. SOME Model 41s were made with very tight bores and ar wonderful shooters; mine handles .264 slugs and shoots 1 inch. For a $56 rifle, I have NO complaints.

There was also a MINIATURE Carcano, the Balilla model, 6.5mm but took a special BLANK round. It was for training Fascist youth before they were drafted.

Don't bother looking for an Armaguerra Model 39 semi-auto unless you are very wealthy or very damned lucky. The one I have took 40 years to turn up and I have not seen another. It is s/n 38. There might be 3 or 4 more in Canada, but even most Italian museums don't have one.

The REST of the series are interesting, historical and a lot of fun to shoot. They are the most UNDER-valued military rifles in existence, with the possible exception of their ancestor, the Vetterli-Vitali, after it was converted to handle the 6.5x52 round.

They are fine rifles, taking fine cartridges. MUCH of the reason for their poor press is the fact that it was a Carcano that killed Kennedy.... and the Americans just can NOT bring themselves to believe that a former-enemy rifle, not German (the Mauser is ancestral to the Springfield) and not shiny, can also be a GOOD rifle. Besides, the Italians didn't have money to waste on finish: they just built lots of solid, functional Carcanos.

BTW, there is a distinct CANADIAN variant of the Carcano. In the 1920s, Howard W. Cooey converted hundreds of surplus Italian War One rifles into sporters which were sold through the Timothy Eaton Company. The military sights were trashed, stocks cut down for sporters, new Cooey barrels attached into a barrel-stub made from the old chamber and double-set triggers added. These APPEAR to handle the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridge, so be careful. ANDY has a test-to-destruction thread in this Forum, so read it carefully.

Hope this helps.
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That's a good piece of info smellie. I had a 21" barreled Carcano back in the
early 70's that shot great using Norma ammo. I picked off all sorts of
small game and a couple of deer with it before trading it to a friend for
a No 4 Lee Enfield. I wish I had kept the little bugger cause it was a more
pleasant rifle to shoot. Oh well, live and learn.:redface:
 
I've heard similar things in relation to accuracy, Smellie. I've generally heard that their reputation for being inaccurate is related to less than stellar ammunition being put through them, not a fault of the design.

I've never even seen a Carcano in person, and they are not where my main interests lie, but they're certainly interesting pieces of history.
 
I've heard similar things in relation to accuracy, Smellie. I've generally heard that their reputation for being inaccurate is related to less than stellar ammunition being put through them, not a fault of the design.

I've never even seen a Carcano in person, and they are not where my main interests lie, but they're certainly interesting pieces of history.

Yes, ammo was and is the problem, they shoot a .268 dia bullet not the reg .264 we use in 6.5x55 Swedish. Go with the M91/41, it's a great start.
 
A great bit of info as always, Smellie! I passed up the chance at a nice M41 a while back and still kick myself.
 
Hi,

here is the list of different carcano models:

Moschetto balillia (toy for kids)
1891 Fucile
1891 cavalry
1891 TS
91/24
91/28
91/28 trombocino (with grenade launcher)
M38 in 6,5
M38 in 7,35
M38 TS
91/38 cavalry in 6,5
91/38 cavalry in7,35
M38 TS in 8mm
91/38 cavalry in 8mm
M91/41
German HK conversion
Carcano type 1 in 6,5 jap

Depending on caliber and lenght, if you want wwi or wwii, you have a lot of choice...
You can also look for crossed rifles marking on carcano. THey are supposed to be for marksman and be better shotter.

Armaguerra made m41 fucile from 1942 to 1944, but personnally, the hardest to find was the 91/28 trombocino, the german HK conversion and the carcano type 1.

Also, some late war carcanos can have very little german marking on stock. I found one last month that i had for years and never noticed...

Some m41 fucile have groove for a front sight hood, but they are very rare. Italians made a try for front sight hood, but it was too costy. Never found the front sight hood, but one of my m41 have the grooves for it.

Finally, try to find one with its original stock arsenal stamp. A lot were rebuild (FAT 1947, 1948) and the original stamp was sanded and replaced with the rebuild stamp.

The sling are expensive and hard to find. Also a lot of models exist. A carcano with his sling is a good buy.

+1 about what smellie told you.

P1010456.jpg


Fred
 
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hey smellie, what are the letters in front of your armaguerra carcano serial number? They started with QA, mine is QA34XX
 
My Armaguerra is the Model 39 semi-auto rifle, not a bolt action at all. Serial starts with A, as in "A.38". It is a 6.5mm semi-auto Revelli-system rifle taking the 6.5x52 round in standard Carcano clips. Mag capacity is 5+1: bolt does not close on a full mag.

I'll check the Model 41 and get back here later, to this post.

Okay?
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