Cartridge did not go off

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ShawnRich

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Not sure where this should go but figured Newbie section might be good. :confused:

I had 3 out of 30 cartridges not go off today. Rem 223, Commercial loads. 2 Winchesters and one American Eagle..? Can't remember what it is called. Hangfire?

Howa 1500 Rifle, relatively new, maybe 100 bullets through it.

I did read somewhere not to be too quick to open the bolt after this happens, forgot the first time but remembered the next two. I did reload one into the chamber and tried again, but no bang.

Wondering if it is a problem with the ammo or rifle? Ammo was purchased about a year ago.

What do I do with these cartridges now? I have the equipment to reload and a bullet puller, but have not ventured into reloading yet, not that I care about reloading the brass. I am wondering how to safely disable the cartridges. Others worked fine before and after these three. These three were not in a row. The primer does have a dent in it so impact from the pin was made.

Suggestions?
 
Three misfires out of 30 is astronomically unlikely to be an ammo problem. It is therefore almost certainly a gun problem.

You could pull the bullets, but you would still have to dispose of the powder and primers. Building a bonfire and dumping the powder in, then tossing the primers in and standing back (or wearing safety glasses) will do the trick.

For that matter, you could just toss the whole rounds in same bonfire, again stand well back or wear safety glasses, they tend to throw little bits around when they go off.
 
Cold weather with to much oil,grease on firing pin spring could be the culprit.
Causing a lite firing pin strike
 
What was the temperature? If it was cold,any grease or oil in the bolt will start to get heavier as time goes on, and slow down your firing pin strike .
 
I did note some oil on the bolt today. I am or was probably over zealous on "cleaning". I have had it for a year but hardly used it.

Temp today was one of the warmer ones lately. We are shooting outside cause COVID has the clubhouse closed. The temp at that time was about -7C. I tried to keep everything warm as long as possible. The gun was probably outside for about 45 minutes before the first one failed, maybe even less time. I would not think those temps should affect the rifle though, unless, as you say, excessive lube.

I will try cleaning the lube from the bolt and look for something, but with my inexperience, doubt I will see anything. I could also email Legacy Sports to ask about the rifle too. (I will do that)

Is there a measurement I can take on the firing pin? I have mics and calipers.

Is trying to fire them in someone else's rifle an option or now that the primer is dented, it probably won't work?

Thanks for the input. Is pulling the bullet with an impact puller (hammer like) safe to remove the bullet and powder? At least the disassembled parts would be less dangerous than a charged cartridge laying around. I could pour a little trail of powder and light it, like in the cartoons. Although, it seldom went well for Wile E Coyote, iirc..... ;-)

Thanks for the input.
 
I do not think minus 7 C is "cold" - in many parts of Canada, hunting rifles fire at minus 40 C or colder - but I think previous posters were talking about grease inside the bolt - around the firing pin spring and within the bolt body bore - you mostly have to dis assemble the bolt to see that and clean it. I had a store bought new Rem 783 for my Grandson - rifle now two years old - he and his Dad took it out with a box of 50 rounds - two did not fire - they say they tried to re-fire each at least a couple times - no go - I pulled the bullets and dumped the powder - both cases (with the dented primers only) then fired in my own Ruger 77 rifle. So, we ordered and replaced the firing pin spring for the Rem 783 - actually had to shorten springs for Remington 700 - and bought spares, if it happens again. A CGN poster advises he changes firing pin spring at start of every competition season in his Rem 783's. Is a "low cost" gun - so expected that springs, etc. will be just barely "good enough" to work for a while. I have no idea how similar or different to a Howa 1500 - but would be a good first check.

I have never used an inertial puller to pull bullets from misfired rounds - that may work fine - I do not know - I pulled these two with an RCBS collet puller. To dispose of powder - I have a 12" x 24" x 3/8" plate that I just spread out powder thinly - then ignite with a propane torch - it sizzles, that is about it. For primers, I have small jar with cap, partially filled with motor oil - I just drop the not-to-be-used primers into that - the jar lives on my workbench - somewheres ...

If you are using 223 Rem - maybe look at military protrusion specs - I suspect that .050" or .055" is about correct. Your firing pin tip should be a hemisphere - half a ball - not pointy, not flat ended. I have some used firing pins here that appeared to have "crystallized", I think - chunks have fallen off and the "tip" is no longer a round thing, under a magnify glass. Modern made guns might be different - what I stated is from last century's military guns.
 
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ShawnRich said:
I did note some oil on the bolt today. I am or was probably over zealous on "cleaning".
Click to expand...

It is not oil "on" the bolt. Folks above were meaning that its is potentially about grease and maybe some debris inside the bolt gumming things up. Sometimes new rifles are shipped with alot of grease packed inside the bolt body and it needs to be removed. Its also good to clean inside periodically anyways, for this very reason of something impinging on the firing pin.

Easy to check on the Howa 1500. Bolt disassembles easily (if in doubt, see YouTube videos), to remove the firing pin assembly. Spray it down with a degreaser making sure the spring is clear of any gunk and is clean, it does not need to be dissembled any further. It only needs a very light oil coating, essentially operating "dry". Clean the inside of the bolt body with rod and patches, and pay special attention to getting any gunk out of the firing pin hole. Again the inside of the bolt body should operate "dry", only a light coating of oil with a patch is needed inside.
 
My guess is temperature related. How long was the rifle and ammo out in the cold? .lncluding drive time if in the trunk etc. Try again with the rifle and ammo kept warm and shoot quickly at the range.
 
Great input guys! Thanks! I agree with Potashminer that relatively speaking, the temperature should not have been too cold except perhaps to affect, as many have suggested, excessive grease in the bolt. It was in a warm truck to the range and left there till the targets were set up, etc. I will take a good look at the bolt. I have also emailed Legacy tech support so hopefully, they will get back to me with suggestions or other things to check. I will report back.

Thanks

Cheers,

Shawn
 
So you had 3 light strikes that didnt go off
All the rest went off correct?

If it were me I would hang on to them and try them again in warmer weather
If they still don't fire, just use a copper pipe cutter and cut the cartridge open and dump the powder on the garden....
 
For starters, ammo makers have learned these days they can relax quality control these days, or eliminate it, and still sell ammo, so that could be the problem. Such rounds are generally called 'duds' (in the unedited version of this post I used the term 'squibs' but that is the term used for when the primer pops but the round itself doesn't go off. The term h'angfire' is more properly when the round goes off after a delay and yes they are quite dangerous, always take precautions when a round doesn't go off. Wait a bit and then unload carefully and keep in mind they could go off inside or outside the rifle, all the while protecting yourself and others. If you get a pop from a squib, keep in mind that the bullet may have been sent partway down the barrel by the pop from the primer, forming a dangerous obstruction.

All that said, and while I have a problem understanding exactly how many makes of cartridge failed to fire, if it was multiple brands it does suggest your firearm was at fault. They do not always function normally in freezing cold unless you reduce the amount of oil and certainly grease that you might use in warm weather, that is likely the problem. However, you say the primers were dented on the squib rounds- was that as deeply as on the rounds that fired, or do they look like 'light strikes?'

A decent range should have a specific box to put bad rounds in, they're not great to keep around. The only thing I can suggest is that without such access you take them to the store you where you bought them for safe disposal, make it their problem.
 
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Big Bad in post #12 raises an interesting point about primer strike - so is it the depth of the strike that counts, or the speed that the firing pin hit to make that dent? I know that I have used my reloading press and de-capping pin in a die, to press out unknown to me primers from someone else's handholds - so, I presume the primers were "hot" - but I was pressing slowly from the inside to push them out - I do not recall having to do that to an upside down primer - yet. I do not know if a primer can be dented with a slow "push" without firing, or if it also needs a "snap" to it, to fire? I see many of the military bolt actions that I work on have much longer firing pin travel, and much heavier firing pins, then what several of the commercial guns have. Does anyone know if "speed of impact" makes a difference whether a primer goes off or not, versus just depth of the "dent"??
 
Well - Speed of impact sure does have an effect. The firing pin builds up kinetic energy (1/2 mv^2) through its travel. It is this energy that creates the dent. More energy = more dent. Any viscous lube or grease in the firing pin channel can slow the firing pin and cause a mis-fire.
OP - Suggest you clean the guts of the bolt. Save the mis-fired rounds for further testing after the clean.
 
cosmic said:
Well - Speed of impact sure does have an effect. The firing pin builds up kinetic energy (1/2 mv^2) through its travel. It is this energy that creates the dent. More energy = more dent. Any viscous lube or grease in the firing pin channel can slow the firing pin and cause a mis-fire.
OP - Suggest you clean the guts of the bolt. Save the mis-fired rounds for further testing after the clean.
Click to expand...

That makes sense. Thanks.

Legacy got back to me this morning. He suggested looking for specs of something in around the bolt face or chamber. I did this and did not find too much, nothing that I would think would be a problem, however, nothing to say that upon my last eject cycle, something did not dislodge and fall out. I did disassemble the bolt and found, what I thought would be excessive oil, but not like it was running out. But I wiped it all down and then just lightly wiped it again with gun oil. The manual is good for bolt disassembly instructions. Fairly straight forward.

I cannot try it for a while. Winter storm warning here now and them plummeting back into a deep freeze tomorrow so I won't be braving the outdoor range anytime soon. Maybe the COVID restrictions will lift next week and we can get back into the clubhouse.

Thanks all for the input. Everytime I ask a question here, I learn way more than just the answer to my question. Thanks for the varied input.

Regards,
Shawn
 
Attached is a photo of the cartridges fired yesterday. The taller ones, obviously, are the ones that did not go off. You can see that one had a couple of pin strikes. The photo might be hard to tell from but to me, it looks like they all had similar strikes.

Which is not good news, I suppose. It would be nice to know that something influenced the pin impact. Regardless, after cleaning again, we will see if it makes a difference.


51829046539_39c8c98251_k_d.jpg
 
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reb said:
Cold weather with to much oil,grease on firing pin spring could be the culprit.
Causing a lite firing pin strike
Click to expand...

This happened to me this Fall.

After tracking a Bull Moose through thigh deep snow and snow falling of trees my action had gotten wet.

After I gave up on the "stalk"....I stopped , made a fire, had lunch...wondered about the ice and snow around my actuon.

Decided to test fire my rifle..."click"...."click" nothing.

Took around 7 cycle of bolt and pulling trgger before it fired.

Hiked back to sled.....packed up skidooed home....5 minutes later 29" Bull almost hits my machine....I get off and have time for a snap shot....Moose down.

Had I not checked my rifle...would have been no Moose this year....lol.
 
clean the bolt, I suspect that there is a fair bit of factory grease in the spring

I had a guy who over the last 2 years constantly had issues with his new 30-06 on the range, every time we would give him the same advise, completely disassemble the bolt and clean it, re-oil with a light oil. He never listened. Finally he took it to a gunsmith who cleaned it and surprise it works now.
 
ShawnRich said:
Attached is a photo of the cartridges fired yesterday. The taller ones, obviously, are the ones that did not go off. You can see that one had a couple of pin strikes. The photo might be hard to tell from but to me, it looks like they all had similar strikes.

Which is not good news, I suppose. It would be nice to know that something influenced the pin impact. Regardless, after cleaning again, we will see if it makes a difference.


51829046539_39c8c98251_k_d.jpg
Click to expand...

Well those are faintly light strikes anyway, at least the top 2 are. Take the advice of Mr Woodchopper.
 
I thought I should update this thread.

I disassembled and cleaned up the bolt, as per suggestions. The clubhouse opened here in Ontario, on Monday, so I went out to try out the previously struck cartridges...

1 of the 2 fired but the other 2 did not. I don't think it is really a fair observation as they all had previous strikes anyways so I don't think the firing pin is going to make a solid impact. But interesting that one still went off. As suggested earlier too, I found the bin for "dud ammo" so disposed of the 2 unfired ones.

I proceeded to shoot about 30 more and all worked flawlessly. But now I was in a warm clubhouse.....

I am going to chock it up to some or all of the suggestions, being bolt grease, cold, maybe a little something on the bolt face or chamber face or a combination of those.

I just wanted to say Thanks for the input.

Cheers,
Shawn
 
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