Cast loads in 38-55, 9.3 and 41 Swiss?

Noel

Noel

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Hey guys!

I am going to try shooting cast in my 38-55 and 9,3x62 and eventually 41 Swiss.
I am just curious, can I still use the same powder data as I would have for the jacketed bullets?
The bullets (boolits) will be gas checked and I know to stay below the 1800fps mark.

So long as the powder is listed for pushing a jacketed bullet in that velocity range I should be good to use it with cast too, right? I know not many loads will go that slow for the 9.3 but I have my load data from my 9,3x57 to go from, they started in that range.

I have in stock: H110, H335, H4895, H414, Imr3031, SR4759, IMR4198 and Imr4350 IIRC.

Let me guess, I need to go get RL15 now.:rolleyes:

If you have any loads to share it would be most appreciated to see them!:)

38-55, 250gr

9,3, 250gr. 285gr and 319gr

41 Swiss, 300-310gr if I can find them. If you know of a source please let me know too!

Thanks for your help!

Noel
 
Don't know about the Euro cals. but my most accurate load in the 38-55 is with a 235gr. Hudson Target bullet and 48grs. of Swiss 3F black powder......one common problem with the .38-55 is the large variation in bore dias. i have seen or heard of them from .375 to .382" and i would suggest you slug your bore before going too far if you haven't already done so. Bullets too small for the bore will a) be inaccurate b) cause leading c) may be unstable and keyhole the trgt. Anyways, have fun with the great old caliber and don't discount it for hunting.
 
Hi Ben!

The barrel is a fresh rebore by Ron Smith. He did it to .375 so it would throw things nice and straight.

A very kind CGN member sent me some samples to try in it which are .376". We will see how they do as he only had one sizer.

Have no fear regarding using it for hunting. I fully intent to do so for the rifle's 100th birthday is this year. I am hoping to get a Whitetail on Uncle Reuben's place which is also celebrating it's 100th year too.

Noel
 
Noel: Both versions of the 4895's are very compatible with cast bullets. For 35 Whelen's I haven't looked any further for a few years for any other powders. Loads from 38-42 grains have all been excellent with 250 and 287 grain cast and gas checked in the 35's. I suspect the 9.3 will be quite similar except they commonly have a faster twist than most Whelens. Both my Whelens are 1/14 and that twist will shoot both weights of bullet into sub 1" groups using air cooled wheel weights plus 2% Sn and Lars Carnauba Red lube at speeds up to 2050. I hunt with these rather than using oven hardened for a bit more speed. Rather have the expansion. Depending on twist you may or may not be able to get best accuracy using unhardened at similar speed but even if you have to back off a couple hundred a 280'ish grain cast bullet will penetrate like you won't believe. I use a similar load in my 348 with 275 grain cast. Come to think of it I use 4895 for cast hunting loads in all or most of my rifles from 300 Savage up. It's not because I didn't try a lot of other powders along the way. It simply works well.
What did you pick up for a mould for your 9.3?
 
Actually the same fellow cast the 9,3's for me too! I'd post pics but my camera or computer is on the fritz. He is trying to get me hooked on this cast shooting stuff. This fall will be a good test with us needing to fill a cow moose and muley doe draw. Both can be fairly close quarters, here's hoping they regulate to the iron sights.

I really like the 4895 too. I haven't any way to tell how hard they are but I cannot really mark them with my finger nail, seems pretty hard to me!
The rate of twist in the 9,3 is 1/14.25" so pretty close to yours.

Exact weights for gas checked and lubed are 257, 286 and 323gr.

Thanks for the tips!
 
When I was shooting .38-55, my favorite load was 10.0 grains of Unique pushing a 255 grain RNFP from the Bullet Barn, at the same velocity that is achieved by currently loaded Winchester factory ammo.
 
Noel; If you're curious and have a couple to spare you could mail them to me and I'll test them in my hardness tester for you. Send me a PM if you want to. My alloy usually air cools to about 12-14 BHN. I've oven hardened them to 27 BHN and a couple of points in between to test. I still like the air cooled for my purposes.

Your 9.3 twist is ideal for the two lighter bullets you have. I'll be interested in knowing if the 323 grain bullet is stabilized with that twist especially if you can test them at 200 yards. The heavies are sometimes stable at 100 yard velocity but by the time they reach 200 they are starting to lose it. Pushing them faster may help if they will retain accuracy at top end speeds.

Getting them to regulate to existing sight in settings can be "iffy" particularly if you are sighted in with full house jacketed. Different recoil and torquing effects. Maybe you'll be lucky.

If you're wondering what to expect in accuracy with cast consider this: I have a 100 yard target on my gun safe that is a 15 shot group using the 250 grain bullet in my Whelen (M70). It is actually 3, 5 shot groups using 2 different powders at 3 different velocities with a total 350fps spread from lowest to highest. (1700, 1900, 2050) . The total group measures 1.125". Only one hole is clear of the large hole that comprises the bulk of the group. There is just a smidgeon of paper separating the single from the rest. As the velocity increased each group overlapped the previous. It caught my attention!
 
Woah, those are impressive loads! I don't shoot all that well to begin with. Three shots in one inch and I am a happy boy.

I just finished doing up five of each weight with your 4895 specs. I hope to test sometime soon but it may be the end of the month.
I hope the 323gr stabilize too! The rifle seems to do 1 1/4" groups at best with 250gr jacketed so I am hoping it likes the heavies more. It does better with 270gr Speers so here's hoping...

It's a bit late now, but do I need to worry about a filler to hold the powder down on the primer? Seems like alot of empty space. I am using a WLRM primer (all I have).

The 38-55 I have to make brass for next week but should have them ready before I go try these out.

Maybe the Vetterli will be here by then too.

Garand, I knew someone would mention Unique powder too! LOL
IIRC that is what Andy is using in his cast load for his 41 Swiss and the 310gr pills. Thanks for the info!

Noel
 
I forgot they were 380gr, was thinking 350gr. It would make a fun shooting session as compared to trying to retrieve slugs from dirt and clay and pit run. LOL

I'll bring the big pine blocks and splitting maul, you bring your heavy hitter.

FOUR!!!!!!!!
 
Noel: No filler should be required with 4895. The 9.3/62 has a bit more capacity than the Whelen so may require a bit more powder to get velocity similar to what the Whelen case gives me. If you have a Chrony you can figure it out pretty quick.

I like to use a hot primer which you have already selected but mileage can vary with this. I found standard primers (Fed 210) gave me quite a bit of velocity deviation . Fed 215's reduced this considerably. However, another contact shooting Whelens with 4895 likes to use large pistol primers as he believes they shoot better because they disturb the powder column less and give him better progression to the burn. Room to experiment here and the Chrony makes the exercise meaningful .

Another way to go to get velocity at suitable hunting speeds is to use slow burning powders like 4831, Re 19 or 22 at reduced levels. I like to use PSB filler with these to get mild compression when the bullet is seated. The amount of filler is measured on a scale/powder measure combination or in a task made dipper and is usually in the neighborhood of 4-8 grains depending on space to be filled. PSB is available from Precision Reloading stateside and a pound is almost a lifetime supply.

Using filler will raise pressure somewhat but usually not critically unless you are very close to or at a max load to begin with. Some of the slow burning powders have a rep. for causing detonation (SSE is the term I believe) when reduced due to the air space and the filler removes that space. I have never seen such an effect (SSE) but it may well depend on how much the load is reduced using this type of powder. When I use those powders I am generally reducing in the 10% to 15 % range below starting loads for jacketed bullets and add enough PSB so that it fills the case to a level slightly higher than the point where the bullet base reaches. Just enough to feel a slight resistance as the bullet is seated.

The idea with the slow burners is to avoid any rapid initial pressure rise (which can be quite destructive to cast bullet accuracy) and prolong the burn to obtain the speed in a slightly more gradual manner. Some of the slow burning military surplus powders are quite popular with the US shooters but I haven't seen the same powders available here.
 
Seeings as these loads are 20+ grains short of what I've used with the jacketed loads I am not too worried about the pressures. I agree with you it should be fine.

I will put each load through the chrony using the following:

257gr w/ 40gr H4895
286gr w/ 39gr H4895
323gr w/38gr H4895

Just like you mentioned, the slightly larger bore and case capacity will drop the pressure a bit. Then the weight being more will bringthe pressure back up some. It should prove to be fun. If there are any hang fires I will pull them and find some kind of filler to use. I have enough flinch as it is. LOL
 
How slow can you go?

Well, I got to sneak off to the range tonight to shoot in the misty drizzle. I don't care because I haven't shot high power in months.

I had to sight in the VXIII with the factory Normas to begin with. Chrony was reading 2544 with the 232gr Oryx pills. Since I was just shooting through the chrony and trying for groups I just got it on the paper.

The 267gr load w/40gr 4895 went 1879,1860 and 1801. 1 1/2" group but I am sure it would do better as it has a Noel factor there.:(

The 286gr load w/39gr 4895 went 1572,1553 and 1527. By this time the target was soaked and I couldn't tell where I was hitting compared to the thousands of shot up targets underneath. Anyone whos shot at Sibbald flats will know what I mean. What a mess.

The 323gr load I was actually really settled in by this time and looking forward to throwing the heavies.:evil: Check out the results!

W/38gr of 4895 the velocity was 580, 580.2 and 582fps.:eek: I couldn't believe the read out on the chrony so I shut it off and tried again. Same thing.:confused: The good news is it put all three into one ragged hole at roughly 75 yards.

The report of the firearm was more like a Ballard in a wild west movie. Not much louder than a starter pistol.
Needless to say I am going to up the charge. I have been told these boolits are capable of 2200 without leading. So long as the group stays tight I might just get it loaded up to where it regulates with the iron sights if possible and leave it at that. Inside 200 yards it will hit not unlike a large wrecking ball less the bruising part.

Note that when I first mentioned the weights I thought the light cast load was a 257 grain. Just in case you are trying to copy these loads better add an extra ten grains in there. How I misread that I don't know.

Well I have four firearms to give a serious cleaning and lube job on now.
I have a good start here and am lookiing forward to playing more.:wave:
 
I also plan to load some cast in my soon - to get here Tikka 412S! O/U:)
it's in 9.3X74R, but I plan to use Pyrodex in it and naked bullets with a milk carton base wad.

Cat
 
Noel...Did you shoot those cast after you shot your Norma jacketed loads? (bad dog if you did)....
*If that 267gr., 40gr H4895,1 1/2" load @ 1800fps + was shot at 100 meters I would say that you have your hunting load...:D That boolit is the best design for hunting as it has some meplat to it....
*There is something fishy with the 323gr., 38gr. H4895 load at 500 fps+...I say that because you are shooting a heavier boolit with one less gr. of powder than the 286gr. boolit load...they should be very close in vel.
*When you cleaned your rifle were there any lead streaks on your patches?
*You should try to lube a patch with boolit lube and patch your bore with it before you shoot it again....dry bores tend to lead with the first shot...Take some excess lube off the noses the of the other boolits if you don't have any lube....You "should" get better groups & less leading as your barrel seasons with lube...
*Question for you... are you able to seat these boolits out far enough so the base stays in the neck???

Stocker...the lite boolit is a RCBS 37-250-FN lubed and gas checked in a .382 lubra-sizing die then sized to .368...
The other two are NEI molds .366/260 & .366/304...NEI uses linotype to cast with and that is why their wt. and sizes come out smaller and lighter..
They said they cut the base for .35 cal gas checks but they would'nt stay on so I enlarged the bases with a scraping tool and use .375 GC's....One is a spire pt. with a small meplat and the other is a round nose...Not that great for hunting IMO unless you cast a soft nose or temper the noses...

What would you suggest for a .358 240-255 gr mold for a 35 Whelen...I have a Ruger#1 waiting on import papers is why I ask...:)
 
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