Cerakote a rifle

[Maple57]

If one wants to go this route, they need to talk with their action manufacturer in regards to specs for the nitriding process to ensure its done in a manner appropriate for their specific action.

Actually they probably don't.

A heat treat facility will have a fully qualified metallurgist on hand who will confirm the initial hardness and ensure the end result is the same. Just make sure you provide a line up that clearly identifies the end result you are looking for.

Worst case scenario is that you may need to provide the type of steel used to produce the items being nitrided. For that, you may need to contact the manufacturer, but the metallurgist can advise you on if that is needed.

 

[kthomas]

Actually they probably don't.

A heat treat facility will have a fully qualified metallurgist on hand who will confirm the initial hardness and ensure the end result is the same. Just make sure you provide a line up that clearly identifies the end result you are looking for.

Worst case scenario is that you may need to provide the type of steel used to produce the items being nitrided. For that, you may need to contact the manufacturer, but the metallurgist can advise you on if that is needed.

I'm not sure how many metallurgists working at these places understand how these actions work, how much pressure they are containing, and how that pressure is contained.

Metallurgy is one component, but it's an engineered system that is containing very high pressure. Would be a shame if someone ate a bolt because the metallurgist figured that what works for an automotive part will also work for a rifle action that's containing 65,000 psi of pressure.

I know that a lot of engineers that design rifle actions recommend that nitriding should be done at the lower range of the nitriding process temps then the higher ones. Ted at ARC is one of them. A lot of action manufacturers are very wary of aftermarket nitriding, and there's very few places they recommend a customer get their action nitrided. There's a reason for that.

Making the assumption that these metallurgists are going to get it right on a product they are not too familiar with is not an assumption I want to make when that product is containing ~65,000 psi right by my face.

However, I'm an advocate of free choice. It's your action and your face, and your choice. If you feel safe making those assumptions and that decision without consulting the OEM that's engineered and manufactured that product, then that's your choice to make and I respect that you have the ability to make that choice.

 

[kthomas]

Here's a little snippet from American Rifle Company, that lightly broaches this topic:

An action needs to have a margin of safety to resist the dangerously high loads resulting from misuse. The margin of safety stems from both proper design and proper heat-treatment of the steel from which the action is made. Therefore, the Mausingfield action must never be subjected to temperatures above 400°F (204°C) for any reason, because doing so will significantly weaken it and compromise its safety margin. The Mausingfield must not be subjected to high-temperature surface treatments such as ferritic nitrocarburizing or salt-bath nitriding, because such treatments are conducted at temperatures ranging from 900-1200° F (480-650° C). These treatments are marketed under several trade names, including Nitrotec®, Tufftride®, Tenifer®, QPQ®, and Melonite®. While these finishes might be suitable for some firearms, they are not suitable for the Mausingfield and may not be suitable for other bolt actions either.

Remember, safety margins are established so that you will not be seriously injured or killed in the event that you do something really stupid or careless. Under no circumstances should you subject any American Rifle Company firearm to an environment that will reduce its safety margins.

 

[Jefferson]

Highly doubt red Deere shooting centre has a qualified metallurgist on hand
perhaps most of the outfits doing this have received a day it 2 training that is it

Actually they probably don't.

A heat treat facility will have a fully qualified metallurgist on hand who will confirm the initial hardness and ensure the end result is the same. Just make sure you provide a line up that clearly identifies the end result you are looking for.

Worst case scenario is that you may need to provide the type of steel used to produce the items being nitrided. For that, you may need to contact the manufacturer, but the metallurgist can advise you on if that is needed.

 

[6MT]

.....

 

[Maple57]

I'm not sure how many metallurgists working at these places understand how these actions work, how much pressure they are containing, and how that pressure is contained.

Metallurgy is one component, but it's an engineered system that is containing very high pressure. Would be a shame if someone ate a bolt because the metallurgist figured that what works for an automotive part will also work for a rifle action that's containing 65,000 psi of pressure.

I know that a lot of engineers that design rifle actions recommend that nitriding should be done at the lower range of the nitriding process temps then the higher ones. Ted at ARC is one of them. A lot of action manufacturers are very wary of aftermarket nitriding, and there's very few places they recommend a customer get their action nitrided. There's a reason for that.

Making the assumption that these metallurgists are going to get it right on a product they are not too familiar with is not an assumption I want to make when that product is containing ~65,000 psi right by my face.

However, I'm an advocate of free choice. It's your action and your face, and your choice. If you feel safe making those assumptions and that decision without consulting the OEM that's engineered and manufactured that product, then that's your choice to make and I respect that you have the ability to make that choice.

You are not asking the guy to select a steel type to make a rifle, You are asking him to nitride a piece of steel and give it back to you with the same hardness you gave it to him at. That is as basic as heat treating gets.

No... not some back yard hack with a torch and a bucket of oil that was on Forged in Fire last week. A professional heat treat facility. There are 2 of them within 10 miles of where I sit as I type this who do heat treat on a regular basis for a plethora of manufacturing facilities in the area. If they screw up the heat treating on a $100,000 block of steel, you can bet your butt they are responsible for damages. As such, you can very well expect a level of competence to heat treat a simple rifle part.

Point in fact, Vulcan gun regularly has actions annealed, so they can hand work them, and then re-hardened back to the original hardness. This is routine.

I cant speak to what Red Deer happens to have picked up along the way, I can only speak to the type of heat treating facilities I assume we understood I was speaking of.

I have dealt with these guys on a regular basis since round about 1981 when I worked as the manager of Engineering overseeing the design and manufacture of jet engine and gearbox parts for companies like McDonnell Douglas, Boeing, Pratt & Whitney, Curtiss Wright, Rolls Royce, Westland Helicopter, Raytheon etc.. By comparison, simple gun parts are quite rudimentary, I can assure you. LOL, I'm currently in charge of Scientific Research and Experimental Development, but hey, what do I know?

 

[kthomas]

You are not asking the guy to select a steel type to make a rifle, You are asking him to nitride a piece of steel and give it back to you with the same hardness you gave it to him at. That is as basic as heat treating gets.

No... not some back yard hack with a torch and a bucket of oil that was on Forged in Fire last week. A professional heat treat facility. There are 2 of them within 10 miles of where I sit as I type this who do heat treat on a regular basis for a plethora of manufacturing facilities in the area. If they screw up the heat treating on a $100,000 block of steel, you can bet your butt they are responsible for damages. As such, you can very well expect a level of competence to heat treat a simple rifle part.

Point in fact, Vulcan gun regularly has actions annealed, so they can hand work them, and then re-hardened back to the original hardness. This is routine.

I cant speak to what Red Deer happens to have picked up along the way, I can only speak to the type of heat treating facilities I assume we understood I was speaking of.

I have dealt with these guys on a regular basis since round about 1981 when I worked as the manager of Engineering overseeing the design and manufacture of jet engine and gearbox parts for companies like McDonnell Douglas, Boeing, Pratt & Whitney, Curtiss Wright, Rolls Royce, Westland Helicopter, Raytheon etc.. By comparison, simple gun parts are quite rudimentary, I can assure you. LOL, I'm currently in charge of Scientific Research and Experimental Development, but hey, what do I know?

Not all nitride processes are the same. In fact, they vary by quite a bit, as do the temperatures they employ.

If you go beyond a certain temperature threshold, you weaken the action. Different actions have different safety tolerances built into them. They also employ different metals and underwent different heat treating processes in the manufacturing process.

It's not black and white, there is nuances to it. I would say that using a process that has a good chance of weakening the material that's containing ~65,000 psi by your face warrants a little bit of extra caution.