CFO contradicting answers Please help me understand!

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aesache

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Hey Everyone,

I had started another thread where i mentioned a build i was hoping to begin. One of the members cautioned me as i could be getting into trouble(shout out to him as i certainly appreciated the curtesy warning). I just purchased a savage rifle in 223. I would like to put a 9mm barrel on it. I can not find a barrel for this anywhere for a decent price.

My thought was i would take an old pistol barrel and us it as a sleeve in a piece of cold rolled that has been drilled out. I would weld and epoxy the pistol barrel in it.
so only the pistol barrel would be rifled and the rest smooth bore. It is only going to be an indoor or 100 yard gun.



I called the CFO office. first they told me that muzzle devices are not counted as barrel length, Then they said they were if they were permanent and manufactured that way. Then they changed their mind. Then i talked to the "Technical department" and they said no then yes then weren't sure.

I was told that the barrel needs to be rifled to the end to be considered a barrel. I then asked how that would work for a smooth bore rifle or a shotgun that doesn't have rifling. They literally said "I dont know"

So i am going to call back. The lady i talked to was really nice and this is not a jab to her by any means. She also sounded pretty young and like she was reading from a book rather than an actual gun enthusiast so i am hoping you guys can point me to the direction of some actual data so that when i call back i can be specific.


Here is a really poor drawing of what i am trying to do
 
you were in formed correct that muzzel devices do not increase barrel length .Although the muzzel device does count towards the over all lenght .Also keep in mind if the barrel you are going to use for the rifled portion CAN NOT BE CUT DOWN .If the barrel is 6 inches with the threads and you cut off the threads and/or the old extractor grove and the barrel 5 and 9/10 inches now its a problem

Also keep in mind that you can not use an old barrel and cut it down to fit to a restricted firearm either .Only a new blank can be cut and then made into a barrel as blanks are neither chambered nor threaded so not considered a barrel till they are

hope this helps as this is the info I received verbaley from the firearms tech
cheers Peter
 
All laws seem to be subject to interpretation and it all depends on whom you are talking to at any given time. The firearm's laws are among the worse for that so I would say don't expect anything concrete from them. The final say would require a judgement in a court of law and even then could be again subject to other interpretation's.
 
not really confusing just dont cut manufactured barrels .If you want shorter barrel you just have to start from a blank and the non restricted rifle with a 10 inch barrel just has to be 660 OAL or more .
 
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I have seen a few people selling the old marlin camp carbines as non restricted even on this forum. The last one I saw was specifically mentioned that the barrel had been extended by a gun smith. On all the examples I have seen you can clearly see the seem where the extension has been added. How are they doing that. Or are they misinformed and selling miss-classified firearms. This is actually where I got the idea from

As for what I was planning I wouldn't have cut the pistol barrel down at all just turned it to a uniform diameter and epoxied it in place........


Ok I just had a thought. According to this train of thought all of the shotgun chamber adapters should be illegal

For me it's not worth the risk but I am trying to understand this law. For my proof of concept on this rifle I will just turn a smooth bore rifle barrel from scratch. Surely that is legal
 
You have a one piece barrel that extends from the threaded barrel shank to the muzzle end. It is not a barrel extension or muzzle device.
You are installing a sleeve or liner.
Nothing in the law or regulations makes reference to rifling. There is no requirement for rifling to go from end to end.
Subcaliber inserts - .38/12ga, .32ACP/.308, etc. are commonly used, and are quite legal.
The only difference between a .38/12ga drop in insert and what you are doing is that your insert is bonded in place.

I don't know why you contacted the CFP.
 
tiriaq said:
You have a one piece barrel that extends from the threaded barrel shank to the muzzle end. It is not a barrel extension or muzzle device.
You are installing a sleeve or liner.
Nothing in the law or regulations makes reference to rifling. There is no requirement for rifling to go from end to end.
Subcaliber inserts - .38/12ga, .32ACP/.308, etc. are commonly used, and are quite legal.
The only difference between a .38/12ga drop in insert and what you are doing is that your insert is bonded in place.

I don't know why you contacted the CFP.
Click to expand...

this is EXACTLY my thoughts, though you have worded it more eloquently than i had. The reason i called the CFP is because i was told by several others that what i was doing was not allowed. I called with the idea of better be safe than sorry. Last thing i need is a fine or all my guns to be taken away because of a cheap $300 project gun

Was it bad that i called the CFP?
 
Not bad, but it didn't help, did it?

Go to w ww.aircraftspruce.ca, and have a look at their selection of 4130 Cr-Mo aircraft grade tubing. There is probably a size that would work nicely for your project. This is very clean high grade steel, and machines nicely.
 
I see what Tiriaq is saying.

As per what the OP has drawn, the actual barrel (that threads into the receiver) is 20" long. And then the smaller liner is epoxied inside of it.
 
tiriaq said:
You have a one piece barrel that extends from the threaded barrel shank to the muzzle end. It is not a barrel extension or muzzle device.
You are installing a sleeve or liner.
Nothing in the law or regulations makes reference to rifling. There is no requirement for rifling to go from end to end.
Subcaliber inserts - .38/12ga, .32ACP/.308, etc. are commonly used, and are quite legal.
The only difference between a .38/12ga drop in insert and what you are doing is that your insert is bonded in place.

I don't know why you contacted the CFP.
Click to expand...

you are correct ,I just complicated the situation ,,sorry
 
tiriaq said:
Not bad, but it didn't help, did it?

Go to w ww.aircraftspruce.ca, and have a look at their selection of 4130 Cr-Mo aircraft grade tubing. There is probably a size that would work nicely for your project. This is very clean high grade steel, and machines nicely.
Click to expand...

Lol no it didnt help to call them.

i am going ahead with the project great link to the site actually they have the perfect size and its $50 shipped. thats hard to beat

thanks again
 
I kind of think that as you are using a pistol barrel that it will still be considered as pistol barrel, one of my customers years ago wanted to put a 38 smith barrel on a ss. rifle for some strange reason, before I did it , Had a long talk with firearm tec and after a lot of head scratching , we all thought to hell with it, I did not want to get involved with it anyway.
But this is a gray matter as far as I know, depends on who is on the other end of the phone I think.
 
A pistol barrel? So what?
And is a pistol barrel turned down into small diameter tube to serve as a liner still a pistol barrel? Sure won't fit any pistol. Can a pistol barrel not be used to make a chamber adapter?
Would it be a problem if a pistol barrel were turned down into a tube and used to line a pistol barrel?
As far as that goes, is there any law or regulation that says a pistol barrel cannot be installed on a rifle? There is the altered, modified or shortened business respecting long gun barrels, but that has not been applied to replacement barrels, only to rifle barrels that have been cut to less than 18".
OP wants to install a 20" long barrel. That is the what is screwed into the receiver.
 
with all the bull sheet , you might be better of getting a 20" barrel blank . bolt action? 9x19MM ? Green mountain barrels .
 
As an aside, nothing that you hear on the phone from anyone at the CFC is worth the paper it's not written on. Get every opinion in writing, on department letterhead signed by someone with the authority to sign it. Stop calling them and write them a registered letter with a required reply date.

Scott
 
m39a2 said:
As an aside, nothing that you hear on the phone from anyone at the CFC is worth the paper it's not written on. Get every opinion in writing, on department letterhead signed by someone with the authority to sign it. Stop calling them and write them a registered letter with a required reply date.

Scott
Click to expand...

The OP is very much in need of a written preliminary opinion on classification here. Unfortunately, there's no obligation to provide one in a timely fashion (or necessarily at all). Sending a letter registered or not, isn't going to help. This would be the equivalent of dropping a letter in the mail that says "in two weeks I'm going to do something and be willfully blind to whether or not it's legal unless I hear from you". That doesn't work.

The design, or firearm, needs to be submitted for verification or classification. The decision can be challenged later, but when it will be provided is an unknown variable.
 
tiriaq said:
Nothing in the law or regulations makes reference to rifling. There is no requirement for rifling to go from end to end.
Click to expand...

I agree but the RCMP's 'stance' has been the rifling must extend to the end of the barrel for measuring the length in respect to barrel length. This does not apply to shotguns. I have seen nothing in the actual 'law' stating this. It was the RCMP's reaction to short Carbine barrels being extended.

If this project is completed as described, why would any official ever be inspecting it? It's a non restricted bolt action rifle in an odd caliber.
 
gaff said:
with all the bull sheet , you might be better of getting a 20" barrel blank . bolt action? 9x19MM ? Green mountain barrels .
Click to expand...

EXPENSIVE the export fees are way more than the cost of the barrel. Looked into that. They had a clearance 300 blackout barrel for 60 bucks it was over $400 with exchange shipping and fees

Group buy maybe.

I have been asking the wrong questions when i called i think. to simplify my question to the CFP.



1. is it legal for me to turn down and existing barrel and use it as a liner for another barrel
and
2. Does a barrel liner have to extend the full length of a barrel.


I believe the answer to #1 is yes and #2 is no


I have access to a PPSh-41 barrel. I could use it as a liner as well unmodified (and could even make it removable) but it being a prohibited firearm eek.

I like the idea of using existing barrels as i dont have to worry about chambering. I can do everything i need to on a lathe with the tooling i have.

I think i am just going to make the thing. I dont run the risk of breaking any laws until i actually install it on a firearm.
Once made i will just take the barrel in to the CFO office and have them inspect it and sign a piece of paper saying they had done so.
 
tiriaq said:
A pistol barrel? So what?
And is a pistol barrel turned down into small diameter tube to serve as a liner still a pistol barrel? Sure won't fit any pistol. Can a pistol barrel not be used to make a chamber adapter?
Would it be a problem if a pistol barrel were turned down into a tube and used to line a pistol barrel?
As far as that goes, is there any law or regulation that says a pistol barrel cannot be installed on a rifle? There is the altered, modified or shortened business respecting long gun barrels, but that has not been applied to replacement barrels, only to rifle barrels that have been cut to less than 18".
OP wants to install a 20" long barrel. That is the what is screwed into the receiver.
Click to expand...

I would agree.

Once you turn off any of the parts of a pistol barrel that would have allowed it to actually be attached to a pistol, it will no longer be a pistol barrel, simply a piece of rifled tube.

If you were to MAKE an actual pistol barrel from scratch, you must be aware that you must not (unless you are so authorized, etc.) make one short enough to be a Prohib device, and you must not cut one down to shorter than prohib length (same, Prohib device BS).

But sticking a liner or sub cal insert into a longer tube, isn't going to get you into trouble unless you were to do something stupid like build in baffles, etc., and create something completely different!

The OP's (and his advice sources) failure, IMO, was to expect the folks at the CFO central, to have any real technical knowledge, beyond the most basic stuff. They do not. Nor are they set up like the Alphabet soup bunch in the US of A, to provide a written answer to tech questions that will become binding in any way. They simply tell you to send it in, and you get it back someday, if they think it's legal. Eventually.

While I personally would not hesitate to do exactly as outlined in the OP, I don't see the point of not having a full length barrel and taking advantage of that. I can understand the desire to use what is cheap and maybe available, but in the end, the time spent is going to be the largest part of the project, and for me, anyway, I figure that the cost of an actual full length barrel would be the least of my worries.

If the original post is what you want to do, go for it. I would suggest that you could easily change up your 'plan' to allow the removal of the insert, so as to allow changing calibers if you saw fit. IIRC, the Crossno (spelling?) insert, is held centered by use of O-rings around the barrel portion, which keep it centered. Some very credible scores have been shot in competition with them.

The barrel is going to screw on, it will be in one piece from end to end, so does not make it a 'muzzle device' as far as I see, and it looks like good clean fun to keep you out of the bars. Nobody bats an eye at the various sub-caliber tubes that fit into shotguns or rifles, I see no reason to think you are stepping across any lines with this project. Heck if you are really worried about it, make the barrel into a .410 bore (for example) and build the insert(s) as you see fit, they don't even have to be solidly attached.

Of course, I don't sit around looking for reasons to wring my hands and worry.

Cheers
Trev
 
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