CFSAC cancelled, participate in local PRA/DCRA matches:

NavalSniper said:
This is a competition that is held in the UK and any NATO country may submit an all ranks Reservist team to this event. Some of the events that are competed in are as follows:

9mm Pistol
SA80 Rifle
assault/obstacle course
dummy grenade throw
archery
emergency first aid

Further to this,,

Teams of 3 pers. One must be a commissioned officer. A fourth to assist is recommended.

The Cdn Army normally only funds one team and tends to move it from Area to Area from year to year. Last year LFAA was the Army funded team (they won the thing). LFCA also sent a team that was funded by Brigade/Area.

The Air Force has always sent several teams to this shoot,, and last year I think there were 3 Cdn Air Reserve Teams that were sent over. The Brits like to limit the overall number of teams to 40. Last year there were 36 teams. They are a bit loose as to who can attend. Countries that are not part of NATO have been welcomed in the past (the Swiss normally send a team).

In addition to the events listed by NavalSniper,, these were also part of last years shoot.
- Light Support Weapon (LSW) shoot.
- Putting up a tent blindfolded.
- The SA80 shoot consisted of various shoots on two different ranges (one a gallery and the other electronic),, as well as an indoor shoot on the small arms trainer.
- No grenade throw last year.
- LFCA won the archery event last year. :)

All in all,, it is a pretty good go. There is a big formal awards dinner with the big haggis thing too,, so bring your mess kit.

It is more like a mini laid back kinda milskills event than a small arms competiton.
 
Longshot said:
Anyone have any info on
The Nato Reserve Shooting Competition????

This is a copy of the newspaper done for the 2002 shoot. Yep,, their very own newspaper.
http://www.raf.mod.uk/7644sqn/images/natomag.pdf

Articles from the Maple Leaf about the Air Force side of things,,

(Scroll way down,,)
http://www.airforce.forces.ca/air_reserve/news/archives_e.asp

http://www.airforce.forces.ca/air_reserve/news/archives_e.asp

http://www.airforce.forces.ca/air_reserve/newsletter/aug04/06_e.asp

It wasn't all that long ago (2001/2?),, that this competition was for officers only.
 
funding for shooting

Sorry if this bores the civilian readership but I feel its obvious that without "the Service," service rifle is a terminally ill program.:(

Funding for shooting is available still for shooting in the CF, its just going to come out of the unit budget not the national level budget. "Joe Taxpayer" may think it really does not matter as, "it all comes out of the same pot," but thats not the case. I make the case that unit shooting programs must prove to the CF that service rifle and pistol shooting is a valid pursuit.

Units can make plans in their operational planning to attend pretty much whatever rifle competition they want subject of course to financial audit and approval by the chain of command. The hard part is rationalizing the cost of sending 4-6 shooters on a competition swan when budgets are already tight. It also does not help that big competitions are generally held in the midst of summer to maximize participation and shooting conditions. This is the time when units (especially reserves) need their talented shooters (usually overall good troops) to attend career training or teach others.

Every dollar spent from the unit budget on a shooting team is money that could be put towards putting the unit as a whole in the field and training. Make no mistake about it it is very expensive to send a rifle team away to shoot and your tax dollars are funding every cent (I do both the unit budget and weasel as much money as I can for the shooting program). Currently most unit ammo allotments do not include any spare ammo for competition shooting so any ammo spent on this is taken from the overall allotment to train the unit in live field firing and achieving their annual personal weapons testing.

I believe money spent on a shooting team or individual sharpshooters is tax payer's defence money well spent but not at the cost of maintaining a team of prima donnas to the detriment of the rest of the troops. I wish we could send every shooter that scores marksman to BCRA competitions but I would have to cancel two unit weekend exercises to afford that and it would cost twice our annual unit ammo allotment (which we will never get).

While competition shooting suffers in the CF, I have never seen the tactical shooting ability of the "gunfighters" as a whole be better. The live fire instinctive shooting programs being done by the light infantry battalions are outstanding programs designed by the JTF II and very similar to programs used by the US Rangers etc. Eventually these tactical shooting skills will filter its way into the reserves and other units and change the way units flog through the lame duck "shoot to live" program.

To save competition shooting in the CF the grass roots shooters are going to have to stick with it on their own (buy lots of cool black guns and shoot!) and engage the chain of command to demonstrate the benefits of a unit shooting program. It boggles my mind that some guys on a military shooting team do not even have a PAL or own an rifle or pistol. If the unit commanding officer sees competition as a party trip for a section of guys it will not get funded. If they can show him it leads more troops to be marksmen, snipers, excellent coachs, and quality small arms instructors he should invest in the program (assuming he's a warrior).

What really kills me is that there is plenty of funding for broomball, volleyball, softball, soccer and other non-contact, base-paper, and family-friendly type sports. We send atheletes around the world to compete in the International Council of Military Sports (CISM in french) http://www.cism-milsport.org/eng/welcome.html games but limit participation in most fighting martial arts competitions other than Tae Kwon Do or Judo. Same goes for Canadian shooting at CISM (Olympic style shooting only) the program is tiny and hardly very relevant to any soldier skills in the field.

One way to get the CF to support a sport or club is to make it more relevant to the CF as a whole. If most soldiers see shooting as a dying fringe interest (thats ironic:confused: ) past time the purse-string holders will take no notice when there is a huge turnout for baseball teams. Its a competition in more ways than one. I encourage CF shooters to get involved and learn how teams and clubs on their base get organized, funded, and approved. Help out with the club.

The other major factor I believe holds the CF shooting program back is the lack of a CF shooting "Godfather" with real influence. Similar to a reserve unit's Honorary Colonel, each CISM and major CF sport has a national senior officer sponsor appointed to act as the sports advocate. It takes a senior officer who actually participates (maybe not at a competition level) to advance the interests of a sport to personnel at the decison making level in the CF (in Ottawa). Imagine CFSAC if General Hillier shot IPSC or owned a safe full of his own ARs and BHPs. Encourage a junior officer to take interest in the unit shooting program and not treat it like a SLJO. As bureaucratic as this sounds it is the way "roundball", playground sports have dominated real soldier sports at bases across the country. With the op tempo right now the army reserves have a better chance in pushing proper musketry programs with both public and non-public funding and lots of soldier interest.

For the civys reading this, I believe you can only win if service rifle shooting takes off again with a new vitality brought about by tactical style matches that echo what snipers, gunfighters, and pistol shooters are doing in their small arms training-for-war. I hope you support the PRAs and DCRA as much as it is relevant to you. Again, I believe service rifle shooters lead to a more deadly and cooler CF as a whole defending our country, but only if they are war-fighters and sportsmen who put in the time, not gear queers on an TD scam.

DC13
 
DC13:

Very good points made. I thank you very much for calling things the way you see them. I'm certain that many others might be offended by your perspective, but that's what the healthy discussion is all about in this forum. You offer a great deal of clarity !

Yes, I saw many Bn teams (roundball sports) get all kinds of time and support (fin, rats, qtrs, tpt, et al) yet, trying to get a shooting interest group was met with frustration. I ended up leaving the Bn (in Calgary) and I did way more shooting that ever out of uniform than I ever did in Battle School.

I thank you for your very thorough insight on this touchy subject.

Interestingly, Service Rifle shooting will always be in a state of evolution. Sometimes this evolution reaches a series of non-productive periods (2002-NOW) and hopefully this will give us time to reflect on what direction the CF will pursue for small arms competition(s). Only time will tell what the CF chooses.

In the meantime the PRA's and the DCRA will have to carry the ball so to speak.

Cheers,
Barney
 
I would like to give new CFSAC and small arms program a chance before we condemn it. There is a strong move afoot for practical and realistic combat training for all troops who deploy overseas. I think we might be better having this discussion in two years. With all the change these days, it is hard to predict how things will be.

Jeff
 
FWIW - (my less than humble opinion).

While GunFighter does get troops ready for deployment and dealing with CQB shooting issues, the longer range markmanship is deteriorating.
Inf PWT is a Farce given 300m max range.

The CFSAC and run up previous was the time that a solider learn how to shoot, and the units Sniper cells where kept fed.

Without the continuation of riflemarksmanship trainign like CFSAC the CF will suffer in the long run.

We need both systems in place to properly train a SHOOTER.
 
KevinB said:
FWIW - (my less than humble opinion).

While GunFighter does get troops ready for deployment and dealing with CQB shooting issues, the longer range markmanship is deteriorating.
Inf PWT is a Farce given 300m max range.

The CFSAC and run up previous was the time that a solider learn how to shoot, and the units Sniper cells where kept fed.

Without the continuation of riflemarksmanship trainign like CFSAC the CF will suffer in the long run.

We need both systems in place to properly train a SHOOTER.

Concur.
..........
 
Sniper1 said:
In my reserve inf. unit, we only go out shooting real bullets once per year, twice if we're lucky :(
So, even if there was a CFSAC, how can we pratice our markmanship skills to be able to compete there ? the FATS simulator ?! ... :rolleyes: :(

Damn budget cuts...

I've been out of it for a while, but this is the route that I an many other successful shooters followed:

1. Buy a .22 or even an air rifle and practice basic marksmanship skills in the back yard. Serious practice - breathing, trigger control, sight picture, etc. Dry fire. Dry fire. Dry fire.
2. Do well in your annual qualification to build a reputation for yourself in your unit.
3. Try to get onto your unit team to the militia area competition or brigade competition, or whatever they call it now. Do your absolute best there and build a reputation for yourself. Make contacts.
4. Find out who is running your militia area team and when it will be set up - this site may be a good place to hook up with some of the people who have that information or can lead you to it.
5. Nag some officers in your unit to get onto the area team for CFSAC. YOU provide them with the information about it - otherwise you will never find out about the opportunity, and you will end up on some lame driver-wheeled course instead :( . In the old days at least, the militia area teams would pick the best shooters from who they knew and then would train them each summer to be the best shooters in the country. If you get on the team, take it seriously and learn everything you can.
6. Repeat steps 1-5 until you win the Queens Medal. :D

Its all about single-minded persistence and taking your training seriously - contrary to popular belief, shooting is not for slackers. There may be a lot of those guys, but they don't bring home the silver, and therefore they don't get back onto the team next year.
 
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Is there any opportunity to look to the private sector for sponsorship to fund the competition?

I know if several corporations that would fund this in a heartbeat.
 
Very good points from Quiet!.
If you are among the best at your unit level, make sure a knowledgeable NCO or Officer knows this and mention that you are interested in shooting at the Nationals.
If your unit can go to Area/brigade comps, and you are winning some silver, you will also be noticed.
I remember it took me 3 years to get onto the area/brigade team after doing very well at unit level and area comps. Yet others who were average shots or less were able to get onto the CFSAC team easily.
I hope CFSAC or another form of national small arms comp. continues in Canada through the near future. It is a great place for soldiers to compete at a high level, meet and exchange ideas with allied soldiers with simular interests. Also a great place for like minded civilians to shoot too.
Good training information pertaining to small arms marksmanship can then be paased on to the instructors back at the unit.
 
When the time comes, CFSAC will be fully funded. The simple problem is we have too many tasks and not enough people right now. Until we get through the recruiting hurdle and move ahead in army transformation, there are allot of things that are being sidelined. Operations remain the priority and as the events of the last couple of days demonstrate, we are no longer in a benign environment like bosnia or cyprus. So please be patient, participate where you can in Civy competitions. I do not believe any area is able to have a local small arms competition so seek out training opportunities where they exist. CFSAC will return....just not this year...

Jeff
 
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