Chamber cast

Johnn Peterson

Johnn Peterson

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I have a custom single shot rifle and the caliber designation stamped on the barrel is 22 cal -Wasp-. From what I've been told and from measuring the dimensions of a fired case, it is a 219 Donaldson Wasp. As I understand it, there are a number of slight variations and this holds true checking the dimensions listed in the Sierra 5th edition manual for the 219 Donaldson Wasp and those for the 219 Wasp as listed in the Hodgdon # 27 manual. So, to determine exactly what it is so I know trim lengths etc, I guess the best thing to do is a chamber cast. What all is involved in the process and what is the material used for casting? Or, is this something that requires the expertise of a gunsmith?
 
Order cerrosafe from Brownells, plug barrel just ahead of chamber, pour melted cerrosafe into chamber. Push it all out from muzzle end with rod. This not only gives you chamber dimensions but also the throating and leade.
 
I've made cylinder chamber castings by melting sulphur , graphite and a bit of
wd-40.
For a .44mag , I used a couple tablespoons sulphur , a pinch of graphite (dry lock lube from hardware store) and just a quick spray of wd-40. mix together in a small can or vessel and use a propane torch . stirring with a stick. It may catch fire ( faint blue flame) , but no big deal. Plug the bore at chamber with wad of anything . use gloves , do it outside. Give a wipe of wd-40 to chamber walls, pour in molten sulphur , it should look like taffy .. allow to cool . it looks like black rubber stopper. use rod and gently prod the casting out . It is not as strong as lead , but can be handled quite well.
Don't get molten stuff on your hands.....


You can buy low temp melt stuff meant for castings from many places like
Brownells , wholesale sports.
 
I use cerrosafe now but have used paraffin wax and particularly for measuring length it should be adequate. I put a piece of cotton butcher twine down the center of the chamber in case the case cracks while removing it.

cheers mooncoon
 
Cerrosafe is the normal thing to use. It's like plaster that doesn't shrink as it dries. You literally plug the barrel at the chamber end with fine steel wool, fill the chamber with the cerrosafe up to just below the extractor grooves and let it dry.
However, the .219 Wasp and the 219 Donaldson Wasp are the same thing. It can be made out of .30-30 brass, according to Old Western Scrounger(contact Epp's), but get a copy of Cartridge Conversions.
 
Major difference in various versions of 219 Donaldson Wasp
is the neck length. What you need is a chamber length gauge.
Anybody with a lathe can make one in minutes, but if you get
stuck I could be persuaded to send you mine. Most likely the postage
from Ontario would cost more then the actual lathe time.
 
Thanks for all the info & suggestions guys. Sounds as though using cerrosafe may be the best way to go.
- As mentioned by ben hunchak, this will also provide throating info etc in addition to chamber dimensions.
- sunray, I guess an aspect that threw me a little right off the bat was the cartridge designation stamped on the barrel, 22 cal -wasp-. That almost seemed like another 'possible' variation of the 219. Checking the measurements of a fired case matched up with info listed for/as the 219 Donaldson Wasp.
The custom made brass I received with the rifle measures 1.714", possibly a touch on the short side. My biggest concern at this point in time is the correct brass length. For example, the 219 Donaldson Wasp in the Sierra manual is 1.813" and the 219 Wasp in the Hodgdon manual is 1.7150" so, until I can varify exactly what the chamber dimensions are, I'll keep the brass for my reloads to under 1.715".
With the rifle, in addition to 300 custom made brass and an RCBS 2 die set, I also got a trim die and a #2 form die for 219 D.W. I contacted the RCBS tech department and to form from 30-30 I also need a #1 form die, which is on the way. They also sent me a procedure sheet, and I was suprised to see no mention of neck turning or reaming. Having 300 brass it isn't an urgent concern and I'll work my way through that when I get to it. Again, my biggest concern is the maximum length of the brass.
With my first set of reloads to minimize freebore I've extended the bullet out to a C.O.L. of 2.250" which coincidentally matches that listed in the Sierra manual. Accuracy wasn't bad and when the weather warms up a little I'll get out and test more.
Again guys, thanks for the input, sorry to bend your ear so much, but one more quick question. Anyone know of a source of supply for cerrosafe on Vancouver Island?
 
sunray said:
… It's like plaster that doesn't shrink as it dries.…
Click to expand...

According to Brownells, it does shrink very slightly and they recommend taking the measurements exactly an hour after solidification.

Here's the blurb:

Hints For Using Cerrosafe
by: Mike Watkins

Recently, we’ve fielded a lot of questions on the Tech Help Lines about casting chambers using Cerrosafe casting metal. The following is some information about Cerrosafe that Cerro Metal Products has provided us with.

“The basic ingredient of Cerrosafe is bismuth. Bismuth is a heavy, coarse, crystalline metal which expands when it solidifies, up to 3.3% of its volume. When bismuth is alloyed with other metals, such as lead, tin, cadmium and indium, this expansion is modified according to the relative percentages of bismuth and other components present. As a general rule, bismuth alloys of approximately 50% bismuth exhibit little change of volume during solidification. Alloys containing more than this tend to expand during solidification and those containing less tend to shrink during solidification.”

What all this means for the gunsmith is that you can make chamber castings using only Cerrosafe and a few, simple hand tools. To make a chamber casting, first clean and degrease the chamber. Use a tight-fitting, cotton patch that’s wrapped around a bore mop or brush to plug the bore just ahead of the throat. I usually leave the cleaning rod attached to the plug until it’s time to remove the plug. Melt the entire bar of Cerrosafe in a heatproof container that you can easily pour the hot Cerrosafe out of. You can use a propane torch or heat over a hot plate or the burner of a stove. Cerrosafe melts easily at 158°-195° F. While the casting metal is still liquid, stir very well, skim off the dross and pour your chamber. The real trick with Cerrosafe is not to overheat it. If you heat the solid slowly, and keep it within the required temperature range, you shouldn’t get any dross.

Note the time the casting was poured. The casting will take only a very short time to solidify, usually within a minute. Wait 30 minutes and then remove the plug from the bore. Turn the muzzle upward and the casting will fall from the chamber. At 30 minutes after initial solidification, Cerrosafe shrinks slightly, so removal is very easy. Allow the new casting to cool thoroughly then measure the casting exactly one hour from the time it was cast. The casting will give you an exact measurement of the chamber.

Cerrosafe casting metal can be used over and over. Remelt the entire amount back together and pour the Cerrosafe into a small mold of the appropriate size. Always melt the entire Cerrosafe ingot to make a chamber casting. For best results, never cut off, or use, just a part of the ingot.
Click to expand...

(Original article:www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/General/DisplayPDF.aspx?f=bt002015.pdf)

:) Stuart
 
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Arctic said:
What are your dies marked? Call RCBS again and they can tell you what the die was reamed for.

~Arctic~
Click to expand...
I have already contacted them again and the response the same as the first. Going over all the info on the dies, starting with the group G 219 Donaldson Wasp two die set,
on the sizer, 219 D.W. F.L. 78
on the seating die, 219 D.W. seat 79
Form dies,
219 D.W. form # 2
219 D.W. trim
*On the box with these form dies, .219 D.W. from .22 sav
The pertinent forming info from the hard copy sheets they sent me is as follows,
Case forming dies - Basic case 30-30 Winchester
1 - Form die #1
1 - Form die #2
1 - Trim die
Case forming instructions;
1. Run 30-30 case into #1 form die, don't trim.
2. Run formed case into #2 form die, don't trim axcess.
3. Run formed case into trim die and trim off.
4. Chamfer case mouth with a burring tool.
5. Full length size case.
6. Load.
I'm waiting for them to sent the #1 form die which should be here in a few more weeks, according to the original time estimate they gave me. In addition to the #1 form die I also ordered their neck turning tool as I'm sure I'll need it. Time isn't a critical factor because as I've previously mentioned, as part of the deal I also received 300 brass so I have lots of time to 'play' with trial & error.
With the initial loads I've tried, it shoots well and looks very promising with subsequent testing.
Oh, the gun is custom made based on a Winchester Highwall action and topped with a J.Unertl scope. Not state of the art, by today's standard, but should prove to fun on gophers etc.
 
Newbies to these old time guns and calibers may be interested to know that orig. Highwall Actions are probably worth around $1000 and any ext. adj. Unertl scope is worth over $700, both items are in the category of "To Die For".
 
ben hunchak said:
Newbies to these old time guns and calibers may be interested to know that orig. Highwall Actions are probably worth around $1000 and any ext. adj. Unertl scope is worth over $700, both items are in the category of "To Die For".
Click to expand...
The combination is a bit of a 'goodie' alright. I have a Ruger #1V in .22-250 that I'd planned to use for long range plinking and varmint shooting. My young son recently moved to the B.C. interior and was 'looking' for a good long range gopher gun so I said I'd give him the Ruger, IF I found something suitable to replace it with. When the Highwall/scope combo came available I thought that would fit the replacement bill very nicely, so, on my next trip to the interior, I'll take him the Ruger & scope with handloads, take the Highwall for me and go thin out the gophers a little.:):sniper:
 
Just checked my brass (RCBS dies) and Handloader #108, they agree, 1.715" is proper, although in some cases the neck may be longer due to preferences. Bottom line is that I'd stick with the 1.715 as your cases are the same.
~Arctic~
 
Arctic said:
Just checked my brass (RCBS dies) and Handloader #108, they agree, 1.715" is proper, although in some cases the neck may be longer due to preferences. Bottom line is that I'd stick with the 1.715 as your cases are the same.
~Arctic~
Click to expand...
Thanks guy I agree. That was/is my intent to go with a maximum case length of 1.7150" VS the 1.813" listed in the Sierra & Hornady manuals at least until I find out for sure. If it is a little under length, no big problem. A 'little' over length................... Thanks again.:)
 
little pete said:
Hello Johnn

Did you ever find a Canadian supply for cerrosafe?

little pete
Click to expand...
Not yet, nothing local anyway. With the amount of new custom brass I received in the deal, there isn't any real degree of urgency. Plus, in the meantime I'd go with the shorter case length. I thought on my next trip to Alberta, when I stop in at @ P&d to 'stock up' on components, I'd inquire there. Do you have a source?
 
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