Cleaning the bore of an old Enfield.
- Thread starter dave9252
- Start date
Blastattack
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg MB
Wipeout? It's good stuff.
Nothing fixes those pits like another barrel without pits. It will always be an issue as long as you're willing to put up with it.
He's right, WIPE OUT is great stuff. You may need to leave it overnight if you have a really bad problem You may not need to clean the copper fouling out of your barrel. Some barrels get along much better just cleaning out the carbon fouling. The copper seems to build up to a certain point and smooths out enough not to keep building up.
He's right, WIPE OUT is great stuff. You may need to leave it overnight if you have a really bad problem You may not need to clean the copper fouling out of your barrel. Some barrels get along much better just cleaning out the carbon fouling. The copper seems to build up to a certain point and smooths out enough not to keep building up.
One application of foam bore cleaner in a No.4 after firing 50 rounds that was allowed to sit over night, "AND" the reason for foam bore cleaner is to keep the cleaning rod out of the bore.
Spare the rod, spoil the bore.
A frosted or pitted bore will give false copper readings if a copper bore brush is used, because these bores will "EAT" the copper off the brush. Then the copper from the brush remains in the bore and gives false copper readings and this leads to over brushing.
Put the foam in the bore and let is sit over night and let the foam do all the work. And then two to three passes removing the remaining foam and oiling the bore with a cleaning rod.
Spare the rod, spoil the bore.
A frosted or pitted bore will give false copper readings if a copper bore brush is used, because these bores will "EAT" the copper off the brush. Then the copper from the brush remains in the bore and gives false copper readings and this leads to over brushing.
Put the foam in the bore and let is sit over night and let the foam do all the work. And then two to three passes removing the remaining foam and oiling the bore with a cleaning rod.
Pitting won't come out by cleaning. Pitting is the result of rusting. Depending on how 'lightly' it's pitted, it very likely won't make any difference for accuracy anyway.
Probably take as long to find another barrel and a smithy who has the tools too.
Probably take as long to find another barrel and a smithy who has the tools too.
The military cleaned the Enfield rifle by boring boiling water down the bore, this removed the corrosive primer salts "AND" any carbon buildup.
You DO NOT need the accelerator unless you are in a hurry, FORGET the accelerator and just let it sit over night. This saves foam and having to running a cleaning rod through the bore.
More damage to the bore is done by cleaning than any other cause. I first saw the foam bore cleaner being used on a 155 howitzer at the military depot I worked at and after seeing how it worked I was sold on its use. Now imagine cleaning a M-16 or 155 howitzer in Iraq and having all the dust and sand in the bore. So again the foam system was designed for MINIMAL cleaning rod time and not damaging the bore by mechanical FRICTION.
The British system of boiling water and a pull through did the least amount of damage to the bore compared to a cleaning rod and our M1 rifle. This very simple, if you don't put the cleaning rod in the barrel you can't do any harm. If you do use the cleaning rod then use it as little as possible. Our milsurps are old, worn and with rough bores, and when we shoot them again a frosted or pitted bore is going to fill right back up with copper the first time you pull the trigger. It might take three or more applications of foam to get rid of all the copper BUT a cleaning rod never has to enter the bore until an oiled patch is pushed through the bore. After this first initial cleaning all that is need is one application of foam and an oiled patch.
KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.
Spare the rod and spoil the bore, foam removes both the copper and any carbon and foam does not have any sharp rough edges.
You DO NOT need the accelerator unless you are in a hurry, FORGET the accelerator and just let it sit over night. This saves foam and having to running a cleaning rod through the bore.
More damage to the bore is done by cleaning than any other cause. I first saw the foam bore cleaner being used on a 155 howitzer at the military depot I worked at and after seeing how it worked I was sold on its use. Now imagine cleaning a M-16 or 155 howitzer in Iraq and having all the dust and sand in the bore. So again the foam system was designed for MINIMAL cleaning rod time and not damaging the bore by mechanical FRICTION.
The British system of boiling water and a pull through did the least amount of damage to the bore compared to a cleaning rod and our M1 rifle. This very simple, if you don't put the cleaning rod in the barrel you can't do any harm. If you do use the cleaning rod then use it as little as possible. Our milsurps are old, worn and with rough bores, and when we shoot them again a frosted or pitted bore is going to fill right back up with copper the first time you pull the trigger. It might take three or more applications of foam to get rid of all the copper BUT a cleaning rod never has to enter the bore until an oiled patch is pushed through the bore. After this first initial cleaning all that is need is one application of foam and an oiled patch.
KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid.
Spare the rod and spoil the bore, foam removes both the copper and any carbon and foam does not have any sharp rough edges.
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At the risk of stating a blinding flash of the obvious, whenever possible use a cleaning rod from the breech end of the barrel, not the muzzle. A lot of Garand barrels show pretty intact throats, but very worn muzzles. It is never the other way around. You can get a cleaning rod guide to minimize muzzle contact when cleaning a Garand or M14 type from the front end.
I've always found alternating applications of a decoppering solvent along with JB Paste to be a good method. But the foaming bore cleaner is worth a go as well.
I've always found alternating applications of a decoppering solvent along with JB Paste to be a good method. But the foaming bore cleaner is worth a go as well.
I used the M1 because it "was" cleaned from the muzzle with a rod and the Enfield used a pull through and if not used properly caused "core wear".
What I'm getting at is we are over cleaning our bores and encouraged by the companies that make the cleaning equipment. The British armourers decided when to remove the copper and it wasn't up to the troops who pulled the trigger. I also remember stories by Hemingway and other authors and their tales of hunting in Africa where after shooting the gun barer would pore boiling water down the bore followed be an oiled patch and that's it.
Below a brand new custom made hand lapped barrel
Below a really bad milsurp barrel that was packed with cosmoline so you couldn't check the barrel. Over half the Mosin Nagants are like this and also countered bored and were cleaned by Ivan Yackinoff.
Below, before and after fire lapping a brand new Savage button rifled barrel.
An even closer look at the new Savage barrel.
Now guess what, the last three barrels above do nothing but "eat" bore brushes and leave the chewed up copper in the bore, and scrubbing with anything is not going to help get anything out of the low areas. "BUT" foam bore cleaners "WILL" remove the copper and carbon and the foam contains no chemicals that can harm the bore if left in too long.
I have every type bore guide you can think of and in the past I have scrubbed these bores for hours and not gotten anywhere. On top of this we are in the milsurp forum and not the benchrest forum. And the foam takes all the work out of it for you without the risk of a cleaning rod rubbing your bore the wrong way.
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WipeOut also makes a non foaming bore cleaner for those that don't like the mess foam makes. Personally I use both, depending on the rifle.
Dewdny Mountain Products is a distributor for Wipe Out products as well as Dewey cleaning rods and jags. Google them.
I must have 20 bottles of stuff including Young's 303 bore cleaner and almost every other bit of stuff out there. The UK and maybe Canada used a product called Motty's Bore Paste. It was abrasive paste that was used for cleaning the cupro nickel fouling out of the bores. I am only going on hearsay on this. Supposedly the cupro nickel fouling made normal copper fouling look easy to remove. Supposedly the ammonia solvents weren't as effective on it and they had to use a 4x2 patch coated with Motty's to scrub it out.
I had three bottles of it and have used it sparingly on bores that were really badly fouled. (before Wipe Out came along) It worked something like JB Paste but much better. There is more abrasive in it and coarser. Doesn't seem to mark the steel though and is especially effective on lead fouling.
Dewdny Mountain Products is a distributor for Wipe Out products as well as Dewey cleaning rods and jags. Google them.
I must have 20 bottles of stuff including Young's 303 bore cleaner and almost every other bit of stuff out there. The UK and maybe Canada used a product called Motty's Bore Paste. It was abrasive paste that was used for cleaning the cupro nickel fouling out of the bores. I am only going on hearsay on this. Supposedly the cupro nickel fouling made normal copper fouling look easy to remove. Supposedly the ammonia solvents weren't as effective on it and they had to use a 4x2 patch coated with Motty's to scrub it out.
I had three bottles of it and have used it sparingly on bores that were really badly fouled. (before Wipe Out came along) It worked something like JB Paste but much better. There is more abrasive in it and coarser. Doesn't seem to mark the steel though and is especially effective on lead fouling.
What borescope and camera are you using to take those photos Ed?
The Savage barrels look knurled! But it's too consistent to be cutter chatter; what the deal?
The old SMLE and Long Lee barrels were pretty soft; the viewers would straighten them holding one end and dropping them against a leather covered wood block, but I have my doubts about cord wear as a concept. Take an old pull through and recrown an old barrel and see if you can cause any wear by spending a few hours pulling that cord back and forth over the muzzle! I'm doubtful, unless there was grit embedded in the cord and that wold be quite possible in sandy, dusty places such as the Soldiers of the Queen often used to find themselves.
This is why smart people like the Swiss used bronze thread collars on their cleaning rods so that steel rod to steel bore contact was minimized. IMO a steel rod with a nylon or synthetic coating is no danger to a barrel is competent hands, with or without a guide.
Interesting points Riflechair. To me that suggests the boiling water treatment is still a good idea, since the residual heat drives moisture out of the steel before oil is applied, which should help to prevent it being re-absorbed and creating the galvanic action you refer to.
The Savage barrels look knurled! But it's too consistent to be cutter chatter; what the deal?
The old SMLE and Long Lee barrels were pretty soft; the viewers would straighten them holding one end and dropping them against a leather covered wood block, but I have my doubts about cord wear as a concept. Take an old pull through and recrown an old barrel and see if you can cause any wear by spending a few hours pulling that cord back and forth over the muzzle! I'm doubtful, unless there was grit embedded in the cord and that wold be quite possible in sandy, dusty places such as the Soldiers of the Queen often used to find themselves.
This is why smart people like the Swiss used bronze thread collars on their cleaning rods so that steel rod to steel bore contact was minimized. IMO a steel rod with a nylon or synthetic coating is no danger to a barrel is competent hands, with or without a guide.
Interesting points Riflechair. To me that suggests the boiling water treatment is still a good idea, since the residual heat drives moisture out of the steel before oil is applied, which should help to prevent it being re-absorbed and creating the galvanic action you refer to.
RRCo
The pictures came off the net and the Savage button rifled barrel was scanned from a gun magazine and this is normal. A cut rifle barrel or hammer forged will not have these "speed bumps" but it shows how even a new barrel will eat your bore brush.
Cord wear on the Enfield was a fact, all you need to think about is the Enfields in North Africa, dirt, sand and a oily pull through cord. Gauges were used to check for this and the barrels were stamped and when the rifle failed normal accuracy tests the barrel was replaced. And boiling water will not stop dissimilar metal or galvanic corrosion, all it takes is high humidity to restart the corrosion process all over again. And cleaning with strong ammonia bore cleaners can also damage the bore and foam will not.
I learned the hard way by buying Yugo milsurps that were not taken cared for and Russian Mosins with pitted and frosted bores. Scrubbing these type bores with a cleaning rod adds insult to injury by endless scrubbing and the foam bore cleaner eliminates this.
I have two Savage rifles with button rifled barrels and I ran into the same problem to a lesser degree with copper bore brushes being eaten and false copper readings. The only problem I ever had with the foam bore cleaner was with my M1 Garand and forgetting to clean the gas system. When the foam bore cleaner was left in the gas system it gummed up the piston, but was cleaned up by spraying it with WD-40 and a nylon brush. It is no problem on the AR15, SKS, or AK47 type gas systems where you can use a spray like gun scrubber, carb cleaner, etc.
The link below is an eye opener on stock and custom barrels.
Lilja BoreScope Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA
The pictures came off the net and the Savage button rifled barrel was scanned from a gun magazine and this is normal. A cut rifle barrel or hammer forged will not have these "speed bumps" but it shows how even a new barrel will eat your bore brush.
Cord wear on the Enfield was a fact, all you need to think about is the Enfields in North Africa, dirt, sand and a oily pull through cord. Gauges were used to check for this and the barrels were stamped and when the rifle failed normal accuracy tests the barrel was replaced. And boiling water will not stop dissimilar metal or galvanic corrosion, all it takes is high humidity to restart the corrosion process all over again. And cleaning with strong ammonia bore cleaners can also damage the bore and foam will not.
I learned the hard way by buying Yugo milsurps that were not taken cared for and Russian Mosins with pitted and frosted bores. Scrubbing these type bores with a cleaning rod adds insult to injury by endless scrubbing and the foam bore cleaner eliminates this.
I have two Savage rifles with button rifled barrels and I ran into the same problem to a lesser degree with copper bore brushes being eaten and false copper readings. The only problem I ever had with the foam bore cleaner was with my M1 Garand and forgetting to clean the gas system. When the foam bore cleaner was left in the gas system it gummed up the piston, but was cleaned up by spraying it with WD-40 and a nylon brush. It is no problem on the AR15, SKS, or AK47 type gas systems where you can use a spray like gun scrubber, carb cleaner, etc.
The link below is an eye opener on stock and custom barrels.
Lilja BoreScope Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf9zZqn00CA
I ABSOLUTELY AGREE
It never ceases to amazes me what comes out of an apparently clean bore after running boiling water down the chamber and running a brush. I think the mechanical process of expanding steel does a good job of lifting or separating soft metals and residue. It is important to run a dry patch down the bore as soon as possible though.
One thing to add. I like to keep a can of brake cleaner nearby before I take a rifle shooting to remove oils from the chamber and throat area. De greasing these areas prior to shooting is important to deflect rear-ward pressure on the bolt face with every firing.
