Cluster Buckshot from the 20s

[manitou210]

Talked with a old timer today while at seniors home today, he was at door having a smoke stoped and spoke with him asked if he had ever did any hunting.
He said he hunted deer in the 20s in southern Ontario when they opened a shotgun only season, as the deer where eating all the young apple and fruit trees, wounded at lot with buck shot, until his uncle started takeing the 9 large balls out of shells,cutting each one about 3/4 way through and then placing a copper wire about 4" long and hamering the lead tight and then feed them attached back into shell, he said we wounded far less deer and it was much like a slug.
The old timers are sure interesting to listen to and they love someone just to talk with, very long days for them.

 

[death-junky]

hummm..... that is interesting, anything to back it up?
ttyal
Riley

 

[hs4570]

Have heard of that proceedure being done by people 60 + years ago also from "old-timers" ....

Perhaps its a take off from the days English navy cannon used to fire "chained ball" to take out ships masts.. except in this case a wider "pattern" would have been beneficial..

 

[Halger280HVMag]

Sounds like it has possibilities as a Bear Defense Load.

 

[BIGREDD]

hummm..... that is interesting, anything to back it up?
ttyal
Riley

Just his age and experience I suppose Riley... something you lack at times.
I have heard of this and various other methods used by the old timers... My ex's Grandfather showed me how they made slugs out of threaded rod to shoot deer for meat in the 20's and 30's.
Necessity is the mother of invention for sure.

 

[Fox]

I have heard of it done, also turning a round of birdshot into a slug just in case, you cut the hull about 3/4 down the shell, only to the wad all the way around, when the shell goes boom it takes the top part of the hull with it making a 1 1/8" slug. I have never tried it and it scares me a little thinking about it, but that is what grandpa used to do way back when he forgot slugs and he was bird hunting during moose season.

 

[tiriaq]

There was (is?) an outfit in the States offering shells loaded with buckshot laced on music wire.

 

[death-junky]

Just his age and experience I suppose Riley... something you lack at times.
I have heard of this and various other methods used by the old timers... My ex's Grandfather showed me how they made slugs out of threaded rod to shoot deer for meat in the 20's and 30's.
Necessity is the mother of invention for sure.

I love you too BIGREDD
ttyal
Riley

 

[BBB]

Heard about Warren Page, I think, who suggested that American gun-owners stock up on similar loads during the second world war in the event of a Nazi Paratroop invasion. He figured looping buckshot together with wire would slice up the parachutes.

 

[Foxer]

Well the effect of 'chained ball' and 'grape' have been well documented for larger guns - it would make some sense to me.

It would make MORE sense to me just to shoot 'em with a rifle or slug of course

I wonder if the ministry would consider a single string of ball on wire to be 'multiple' or 'single projectile'?

 

[eltorro]

I have had a similar change of opinions about this matter on a different forum.
I remembered one movie ("No Mercy" I think - Richard Gere and Kim Basinger) in which a load on a string was "doctored" by the hero.

As a result, I tried to see for myself if it would be of any advantage to use this on game. First I ....

Before posting this, I'd like to know if the legality of manufacturing or using (for testing) of this ammunition is of any concern. Recent developements in the attention the police and RCMP are paying to our site make me wonder if going any further with this is wise.
So... are they legal or not?

 

[DVXDUDE]

my dad had a bunch of old 410 shotgun shells. i forget what size of BB's they were but they were OLD, like from the 60s or 70s. We seen a groundhog about 30 yards away, he shot it and I guess all the BB's all stuck together because when we walked up to see the groundhog , he had a hole punched through his neck about the size of a golfball and we could see where the bullet went into the ground behind him. LOL

 

[canucklehead]

http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__18/Specialized_Shotshell_Ammuniti/specialized_shotshell_ammuniti.html

I saw a similar page to this before. The 'bolo' round on this page sounds like the same idea.

Half (okay, almost ALL) of the shells on this page are considered illegal in Canada, and most wouldn't do anything that a slug or buckshot couldn't do. It's all gimmicks!

 

[eltorro]

Since it clearly seems to be legal to at least be curious about the utility of such rounds, I present a test.

The test was as follows: target @ 25yds., target size 20"x21", Shotgun Rem 870, 18" bbl, cyl. choke (no choke), smoot bore.
The ammo was Winchester 00 Buck Super X.

The whitness shot looked like this:

since there were 9 balls in that shell there were two distinct possibilities. Tie them 3x3 or one long string. The pellets were opened half way and then closed back on the string. The concern about the strength of the string to be used led to testing of both fishing multifillament line (90lbs) and snare wire.

Here's a picture with a shot of a shell with pellets tied 3x3 - with fishing line. The distance between the pellets was 3-4mm.

http://vinatorul.ro/forum/album_pic.php?pic_id=2739&full=true&user_id=754

The same type of tie, but with wire.

This time the string has all 9 pellets attached on it. The string cut the paper and the backboard.

While the 3x3 were all tied in complete circles (the last pellet was clamped on a knot) the last one was a simple line.
The idea that the line would not be strong enough to hold the pellets limited the amount of space between the pellets. It is clear that a little more space would have resulted in a more impressife pattern.

Are they good for hunting? Should then a smaller size shot be used, to yield a larger spread? How would they be affected by a choke?

I don't know. Some further penetration tests and a greater distance between pellets would be helpful...... Anyone?

 

[Foxer]

but they were OLD, like from the 60s or 70s.

I hate you.

 

[Fox]

If you could open it up a bit, and keep on target the last one looks really good, would this be legal on game now? I have heard of people doing with fishing split shot as well.

 

[BBB]

Yeah, it looks almost as good as a slug!

 

[John Y Cannuck]

A lot of work to make pseudo slugs from buckshot.
Something to play with, but not really worth it.
What happens if the wire/lead mix decides to plug your barrel a little tighter than you thought? Not likely, but probably not impossible.
When I was young and foolish, I used to make 410 rabbit loads by emptying the hull of shot, and filling it with BB's (the copper plated bb gun type).
In the super thick walls of the single shot Winchester I was using, I got away with it. But now and then, an ejected hull was missing half of the paper.
Be careful guys, we don't need an accident.

 

[eltorro]

It was never intended to be a slug. I personally believe that only the 3x3s are of any help, unless one considers the damage possible caused by the string.
Would they break on impact ?
So many tests, so little time...

 

[ckid]

Very interesting experiment Eltorro. I recently returned from a shotgun instructors course where a variety of buckshot loads where demo'd. Run of the mill fed/win/rem load paterned very similar to your pattern at 20 yds. Then came the new Hornady loads and were giving about 2" paterns at 20 yards out of cylinder bore (8 pellet OO-buck). These new Hornady loads claim to be able to keep all 8 pellets on a torso sized target out to 50 yards - from what I saw at 20 I'd tend to believe it.