Colt 1851 convertion .38 special

papiloran

papiloran

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I was thinking to buy a antique colt 1851 and I see a cartridge conversion cylinder offers by Kirst Konverter® to convert it to .38 special. Is this caliber is supposed to be ok for antique firearms ? :

A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.
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Its like a webleys in 455 converted in 45 Acp ?

So did this convertion would still consider this firearms antique and legal ? Thank you
 
papiloran said:
And how can you make a 38 special revolver unable to shoot 38 Long colt ?
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You don't.
But the screwed up mess of Law that was written, says nothing about what else will possibly fit, just what it was designed or modified to fire.
So if it says 38 Spl., on the side of it, it's pretty obvious to me, that it was neither designed for, nor modified to fire, anything except that. Any other cartridges that will fire in the chamber, safely or otherwise, don't matter.
 
Kirst lists their unit as being able to shoot .38 Long Colt, .38 Short Colt, and .38 Special Cowboy loads. The original barrel won't work with .38 Special unless the cartridges are loaded with hollow based or heeled bullets. That essentially makes the cartridges .38 Long Colt. Given that Kirst specifically lists the .38 Colts, I think that dooms any chance of a converted 1851 being deemed to retain antique status.
Kirst advertises their Colt type conversions as being for the Uberti or Pietta reproductions. No idea if they would fit an original. I know for a fact that they will not fit an 1860 Centennial reproduction - and these are closer to an original that the Italian reproductions.
 
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If I make the barrel the right size for 38 special, make the kit fit on a original 1851 and write on the side of the gun 38 special by a gunsmith. Would it be legal ?
 
Kirst advertises their unit as .38 Short and Long Colt caliber. Nothing you do to the gun is going to change how the manufacturer describes it. Fitting a .357 barrel still doesn't change the fact that the conversion unit was designed for.38 Colt and will chamber and shoot it. Engraving .38 Special on the thing doesn't change Kirst's description.
There is a chap who is doing cartridge conversions on .36 percussion revolvers to shoot .41 Long Colt. That would avoid the .38 Colt issue. These conversions are on modern reproductions. No idea if it would be possible to do the conversion on an original.
Something else to consider - by the time you obtain a shooting condition '51 Navy, and the conversion setup, for the same money you could buy a functional antique cartridge revolver in an exempt caliber. And you wouldn't be screwing up an antique in the process.
 
I would probably buy a small 32 rimfire revolver but I like to know what is posible to do if I want to. But if it does't have the brand on the kit it could be gunsmith made kit. No one would know that it was a Kirst made kit.
 
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A Kirst .38 cylinder is marked .38LC, and is serial numbered to match the conversion ring. The conversion ring is marked with the patent number. The kit is therefore identifiable. If you were to attract law enforcement attention, a cursory investigation would result in the antique status of the revolver being questioned. Remember, most law enforcement officers are unaware of the special status these revolvers enjoy.
Shooting an original percussion revolver is more convenient than using a .32RF with blank ignited cartridges. Clean factory .32RF ammunition will cost $2-$3 a shot.
Today at the Switzer auction a Reichs Revolver sold for $1400. I doubt that a shootable '51 Navy and Kirst conversion system could be purchased for less. Ammunition for a Reichs Revolver is very easy to prepare.
 
Ok I understand ;) it is not a question of cost. But if a gunsmith make a kit FOR a 38 special put a 38 lc can be fire would it be ilegal?
 
Would it be legal? Perhaps. Would the revolver retain antique status? Call 800 731 4000 and get patched through to the Specialized Firearm Support Services, and get their opinion. If antique status was not retained, then the thing would become subject to registration as a restricted firearm, RPAL required.
If cost is not an issue, don't fool around converting an original 1851 Navy to .38 Special, and get a decent antique revolver in one of the numerous exempt calibers.
 
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had to look this up on the Krist site ,so it seems good to go to keep antique status
These Colt Navy Konverters are "designed to shoot .38 Special Cowboy ammunition not exceeding 1.425" overall length." You may also shoot .38 Long Colt and .38 Short Colt ammunition. Ammo must be loaded with lead bullets and a low-pressure, powder charge not to exceed 1000 feet per second velocity.
 
tiriaq said:
Kirst advertises their unit as .38 Short and Long Colt caliber. Nothing you do to the gun is going to change how the manufacturer describes it. Fitting a .357 barrel still doesn't change the fact that the conversion unit was designed for.38 Colt and will chamber and shoot it. Engraving .38 Special on the thing doesn't change Kirst's description.
There is a chap who is doing cartridge conversions on .36 percussion revolvers to shoot .41 Long Colt. That would avoid the .38 Colt issue. These conversions are on modern reproductions. No idea if it would be possible to do the conversion on an original.
Something else to consider - by the time you obtain a shooting condition '51 Navy, and the conversion setup, for the same money you could buy a functional antique cartridge revolver in an exempt caliber. And you wouldn't be screwing up an antique in the process.
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I am honestly quite interested in this. Not to do it, rather how? 0.385" dia bullets for HB 41 LC IIRC... seems a touch large for a 36 precussion.
Did I miss something on this?
 
tokguy said:
I am honestly quite interested in this. Not to do it, rather how? 0.385" dia bullets for HB 41 LC IIRC... seems a touch large for a 36 precussion.
Did I miss something on this?
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Go to w ww.cartridgeconversion.com. He reams the chambers and chamber throats to accept .41 Colt inside lubricated cartridges. Not heeled or hollow based bullets. The barrel forcing cone is enlarged to over .386". The nominal groove diameter of a .36 percussion revolver is .375, and this gunsmith reports that soft lead cast bullets work well. Handloading proposition, of course. I suspect that attempting this conversion on an original would be unwise. Any permanent alterations to an original should be discouraged, but this one could have a safety component. Kirst Konverter parts are 4140, and reproduction barrels are modern steel.
The Kirst approach to avoiding heeled or hollow based .38Colt/.38Special handloads is to line the .375 groove diameter barrel with a sleeve to give bore dimensions appropriate for conventional .38Special lead bullets. Their conversion systems are intended for use with reproduction revolvers.
 
I.M.O.!!! That unless any antique is an absolute sewer pipe parts gun, I wouldn't mess with it! I have had one of these in the past & had it restored as much as possible back to original condition. Messing with a Colt to convert it from percussion to cartridge was thing done back in the day & has some historical value to them. Doing these conversions now that permanently mess one up is a sin to me. I get the idea & have a pretty good suspicion why the o.p. wants to do this. But again in my own opinion don't do it! Just restore an old parts gun back to it's former glory if you need a project, & I guarantee it will be worth more than the Frankenstein your talking about when or if you go to sell it.
 
A sewer pipe parts gun might be a poor candidate for working up as a shooter. I have a poor 1858 Remington. Minimal value. But not a good candidate for shooting C&B or cartridge.
 
If the frame is still solid, a machinist can work miracles. The gentleman that rebuilt mine was a true wizard in his machine shop. I had posted about three years ago about it. Had trouble locating a modern day R/H thread barrel for it. Thought I got one with Pedersoli but either the thread pitch or count (can't remember?) was too far off. So barrel was cut & rethreaded.

Tiriaq if your ever interested in restoring that Remmy drop me a line. I think I've still got some good aftermarket & possibly original parts leftover from my build.
 
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