What sort of combat effectiveness did the military report from the old 19th century pistols like 45LC, 455 Webley and 45 S&W in their original military loadings? Was there pressure on to develop more effective manstopper cartridges, or simply to improve other aspects of the pistols as they kept evolving?
Combat effectiveness of old pistols?
- Thread starter Grizzlypeg
- Start date
The .455 Webley was very good. The Royal Navy and Royal Marines prefered the .455 and in the 60's did not want to go from the Colt .45acp they had from WW2, to the Browning P35 but were forced too by the Government. The .38 S&W calibre Webley and Enfield revolvers were woefully under powered. Most police officer in the Uk prefered the Colt and S&W revolvers in .38 special.
45 LC had a short service life with the US Army. When the S&W in 45 Schofield was adopted the army ceased acquiring 45 LC ammo in 1874 and issued the 45 Schofield ctg for both the Colt SAA and S&W for the rest of their service lives. Almost all combat use of the 45 would have been with schofield ammo.
The 45lc was reintroduced in 1909 for the M1909 New Service revolver and again had a short life being replaced in 1911 with the 45 ACP.
The .455" was initially issued with a the familiar MkII RN bt but c1900 the MkIII hollow nose bt was introduced to increase stopping power. This round was found to be contrary to the Hague convention and was replaced by the MkIV and V ctgs which used a full wadcutter bt. During WWI the MkIV and V were replaced by the MkII since the Germans claimed they were inhumane. The .455" gained its reputation when loaded with MkIII-V ammo.
The 45lc was reintroduced in 1909 for the M1909 New Service revolver and again had a short life being replaced in 1911 with the 45 ACP.
The .455" was initially issued with a the familiar MkII RN bt but c1900 the MkIII hollow nose bt was introduced to increase stopping power. This round was found to be contrary to the Hague convention and was replaced by the MkIV and V ctgs which used a full wadcutter bt. During WWI the MkIV and V were replaced by the MkII since the Germans claimed they were inhumane. The .455" gained its reputation when loaded with MkIII-V ammo.
These specs were originally posted by GrantRCanada on the British Militaria board, copied from "The Webley Story." I hope he doesn't mind me re-posting them.
This image shows a MkIII cordite cartridge on the left, MkIII BP catridge at centre, and at right a Kynoch .455 wadcutter cartridge that resembles the MkIV wadcutter but has a slightly different bullet profile. Can't remember where I found this...
There are also several images of the MkIV wadcutter on this page:
http://home.wanadoo.nl/cartridges/455_webley.htm
The Webley manstopper looked like a HBWC loaded backwards in .455 Come to speak of it 3gr of Unique and a 148 HBWC backwards worked wonders in a .38 Special model 10 -4" Even penetrated a 45 gal steel drum at 100 yards and left a welt on the other side expanding to 70 caliber in the process! Harold
It's interesting that Sir Whitworth found that a flat nosed projectile was better at penetrating armour than a pointed one.
How far above the barrel did you have to aim?
tactical870
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I really can't remember where I saw it but I did come across the results of military ammo tests on live horses (online). The 455 rated very high requiring only a few rounds to take down a horse where many other smaller calibers required multiple shots.
Anyone have a mold for any of the .455 manstoppers? Want to sell some?
Anyone have a mold for any of the .455 manstoppers? Want to sell some?
i just read some of the info on the vaunted thompson lagarde testing that the 45ACP guys like to refer to.
apparently less than 20 animals were shot. it would appear the tests were scewed in favour of the 45 calibre handguns.
it's an interesting read, portions are on line.
none of the handguns were really exceptional until the second day when they did the "rapid fire" phase. they never shot the 9mms on the second day.
but the 476 eley did do well, but as had been said ... it was a cupped wad cutter.
i think none of the rounds were full metal jacket ... all lead.
apparently less than 20 animals were shot. it would appear the tests were scewed in favour of the 45 calibre handguns.
it's an interesting read, portions are on line.
none of the handguns were really exceptional until the second day when they did the "rapid fire" phase. they never shot the 9mms on the second day.
but the 476 eley did do well, but as had been said ... it was a cupped wad cutter.
i think none of the rounds were full metal jacket ... all lead.
