Confusion about ammunition for my Norinco M14s

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AchiesBunker

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Hi,

I just recently purchased a Norinco M14s rifle. It is my first rifle and I haven't had a chance to fire it yet. I'm on my way to the cottage this weekend and i'm hoping to have a chance to AT LAST fire my new rifle.

In my search for ammunition I've read so many articles that now I'm seriously confused. (The articles links I've found in threads were awesome - thank you to those contributors, It's just really confusing as you are left with questions about safety).

My rifle is chambered for a 7.62 x 51 NATO cartridge but I keep reading that you can use a Winchester .308. I've also read that Winchester .308 isn't the same as 7.62 x 51. I'm confused about this. I've read that you can use the 7.62 x 51 cartridge in a W .308 chamber because of the SAMMI/CIP rated pressure is higher, however you might end up with problems using a .308 cartridge in a 7.62 x 51 chamber. There are also discussions about commercial brass vs military brass,cartridge length, load capacity???

I've read that you can get around this by using a Winchester cartridge that doesn't exceed the rated PSI of my rifle which I understand to be 50 000 PSI .

Should I be trying to buy surplus military ammunition?

Can someone please offer some guidance?

Thanks in advance.
AB
 
surplusshooter said:
I believe you have it backwords- you can shoot a 308 in 7.62x51 but not other way around. Military builds to higher pressures. Could be wrong tho. Cheapest would be buying bulk.
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.308 is higher powered than 7.62x51nato while 5.56x45 is more powerful than .223
You should get your rifle headspaced before you begin to use .308, especially crap like Tulammo .308 otherwise you'll get complete case head separations and popped primers. Barnaul makes a 7.62x51mm fmj and soft point if youre not able to find any surplus chinese ammo.
 
Hi,

Okay, here is the article I read. Reference: http://www.6mmbr.com/308Win.html (awesome info!)

...

.308 Win vs. 7.62x51--The Straight Scoop
Before we go much further, we want to address the oft-posed question "Are the .308 Winchester and 7.62x51 NATO one and the same?" The simple answer is no. There are differences in chamber specs and maximum pressures. The SAMMI/CIP maximum pressure for the .308 Win cartridge is 62,000 psi, while the 7.62x51 max is 50,000 psi. Also, the headspace is slightly different. The .308 Win "Go Gauge" is 1.630" vs. 1.635" for the 7.62x51. The .308's "No-Go" dimension is 1.634" vs. 1.6405" for a 7.62x51 "No Go" gauge. That said, it is normally fine to shoot quality 7.62x51 NATO ammo in a gun chambered for the .308 Winchester (though not all NATO ammo is identical). Clint McKee of Fulton Armory notes: "[N]obody makes 7.62mm (NATO) ammo that isn't to the .308 'head space' dimension spec. So 7.62mm ammo fits nicely into .308 chambers, as a rule." You CAN encounter problems going the other way, however. A commercial .308 Win round can exceed the max rated pressure for the 7.62x51. So, you should avoid putting full-power .308 Win rounds into military surplus rifles that have been designed for 50,000 psi max. For more information on this interesting topic, read the following articles: Gun Zone's 30 Caliber FAQ; Cruffler.com Technical Trivia, June 2001; and last, but not least, Steve Redgwell's .308 vs 7.62x51 Analysis, which really provides a definitive explanation. Reloaders should also note that military ammo often is made with a thicker web. Consequently the case capacity of 7.62x51 brass is usually less than that of commercial .308 brass. You may need to reduce recommended .308 Winchester loads by as much as 2 full grains, if you reload with military 7.62x51 brass, such as Lake City or IMI.
Ca

...

I've reread and I interpret the same way. Admittedly, I'm a NOOB! Here are other references: http://www.303british.com/id36.html

What is your interpretation?

Also, Can anyone advise on cheap commercial rounds and 'Slam Firing'?

Thanks again,
AB
 
Hey Turkinator,

Seriously, thanks for the quick reply. I love this website. I know nothing of headspacing? Can you elaborate and is this a DIY or does it require a seasoned gunsmith?
 
Your Norinco M305 is a new rifle. it will handle pressures of either bullet designation. The problem is generally with much older rifles.


Slam firing is not caused by cheap ammo, its cause by improper cleaning and maintenance. Some people accuse soft primers to contribute to this problem, but if the firing pin properly retracts, it will not hit the primer to ignite the cartridge.
 
Hi Fiddler,

THANKS so much for the reply! I'd like to buy some ammo tomorrow. When I buy Winchester .308 ammo, should I avoid the anything over 160 grain? I'm curious to know if cartridge pressures are on the box?

Also, thanks for the heads up on slam firing! I'm going to look into that.

Thanks,
AB
 
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AchiesBunker said:
Hey Turkinator,

Seriously, thanks for the quick reply. I love this website. I know nothing of headspacing? Can you elaborate and is this a DIY or does it require a seasoned gunsmith?
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There are go/no-go gauges for .308 you can buy but you can also send a few spent casings to certain guys on here that will measure them for you. If you feel like chancing using .308 before headspacing (i dont recommend you do) as a minimum make sure to wear safety glasses and double hearing protection. A case head separation will leave you with permanent hearing damage and possibly blind if you dont. If the rifle is not stamped .308, dont assume it is headspaced for .308

Also the firing pin on the m14 bolt is not designed to retract and has not spring to assist it. It is called a free floating pin and will lightly strike the primer as it chambers a round. If your bolt is dirty however the firing pin is stuck forward and will strike the primer with enough force to fire the round possibly causing an out of battery discharge which could obliterate the rifle and possibly your hand so it helps to keep your bolt clean after each range trip.
 
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Hi Fiddler,

THANKS so much for the reply! I'd like to buy some ammo tomorrow. When I buy Winchester .308 ammo, should I avoid the anything over 160 grain? Like, do they rate pressure on the ammo carton?

I've field stripped the rifle, however, as mentioned it's my first rifle. That being said, I haven't stripped the sight assembly or the trigger assembly. Now that I consider it, perhaps I haven't truely "field striped" the rifle. Anyway, your advice on keeping the rifle clean and serviced. Invaluable.

Thanks again,
AB
 
iirc, NATO spec chambers are slightly larger (i.e. made to looser tolerances) so that the actions of military firearms don't seize with dirt when in combat or from ammo that is slightly too large.

Commercial .308 chambers are made to tighter tolerances to make the rifle more accurate. Commercial brass can also be thinner them military grade, which is intended to be more rugged.

So a NATO 7.62 x 51 round in a .308 chamber should be okay, but a commercial .308 round in a 7.62 NATO chamber may rupture or have the base torn off on extraction.

"Headspace" relates to the length of the chamber, on a closed bolt. If the space is too long (out of spec), the cartridge casing can rupture as there is too much room inside the chamber to properly support the casing under the pressure of the gas from the combusting gun powder.

Military ammo also have harder primers to reduce the risk of "slam fires" where a round goes off on a closing bolt (without trigger pull), again, because military arms have to work in war time conditions.
 
AchiesBunker said:
Hi Fiddler,

THANKS so much for the reply! I'd like to buy some ammo tomorrow. When I buy Winchester .308 ammo, should I avoid the anything over 160 grain? Like, do they rate pressure on the ammo carton?

I've field stripped the rifle, however, as mentioned it's my first rifle. That being said, I haven't stripped the sight assembly or the trigger assembly. Now that I consider it, perhaps I haven't truely "field striped" the rifle. Anyway, your advice on keeping the rifle clean and serviced. Invaluable.

Thanks again,
AB
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they don't rate pressure on the ammo carton.

try to buy military surplus if you can.

if you're buying commercial .308, stay away from higher velocity or higher power loads and stay within 150 grain bullet weight.

I've have some military surplus (Norinco) 7.62 NATO if you want. PM me.
 
My humble opinion would be to get a few different types of ammo that you have available and see how your rifle likes them. You can have a look at my thread http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...rimers-pushed-out-a-bit-with-308-factory-ammo where I did just that. There is a lot of variability with these rifles and maybe you don't want to end up with 450 rounds that your rifle doesn't like. I think there is a always a chance to get a 'great' one, you just never know - which is amazing for the money spent.

When I had a new one I started with one round in the magazine. NEVER load this rifle from the top - only from the magazine. So load one in a mag, and fire it. Was at 50 yrds to start.

I fired a few, one at a time. Then a few magazines with two rounds. Cases looked good so - have at 'er. I had some expensive hunting rounds, some Norinco Surplus, some cheap .308 and even some of those super expensive 'zombie' ones. For .308 there is so much selection. 7.62 NATO is a bit harder to find. See what your rifle likes.

Read ALL of the stickies and start slow. Also if you search for 'becoming riflemen' you can find lots of info about the sight picture on the old m14, stances, shooting positions, etc.

It is a pretty great place to be - Welcome to the club!!!

WS
 
chambering either and firing is not really the problem it is the pressure curve of .308 ammo that is the problem. the normal hunting rounds I would say the common 180gr uses different powders and that will make the oprod etc. travel faster and slam around the bolt rod piston faster and harder then rifle is designed. for. Even the cheap 150gr ammo is probably not what we should be using but there is not much choice out there so stick with 150gr. As it is about all we can find that is close. some of the reloading books have a part for these type of rifles M1A and they use certain powders. regular .308 offer more choice but not recommended for M1a style rifles
 
The often-quoted pressure difference between the two is mostly accounted for by the differences in test methods. SAAMI uses a transducer and 50,000 psi is the older 7.62 NATO standard using the copper crusher method. The NATO EPVAT maximum pressure is 415 MPa (60,190 psi) using a transducer, but with a different procedure from SAAMI.

The main difference as it applies to M14-type rifles is excessive headspace by commercial .308 standards. This is unlikely to cause catastrophic failure, but is definitely not conducive to good case life for reloading. .308 factory ammo with bullets lighter than 180 grains should be fine.

If you use military cases to reload, reduce your maximum powder charge by about 1-2 grains compared to commercial cases.
 
Just be wary of open lead tipped ammo. The lead tips can break off during the violent loading sequence, and fall into the mechanisms (trigger group, etc) raising the risk of malfunction. (stoppages, fail to feed, or even full auto bursts if the lead falls in the right place) . These guns were designed to use full metal jacket bullets initially , and only when the M14 became a civilian gun did the "option" of hunting type ammo being used come into play. Just take that with a grain of salt. I have a good friend (who will kill me if I mention his name here) that had his M305 emit a 4 shot full auto burst. After we spent about 20 minutes inspecting the gun, we decided to take it home and do a full tear down. (thinking there was a broken piece of metal in the trigger group or something of the like) . What we found was a pile of lead "BB's" that had settled into the trigger group and mucked it up, causing the malfunction. These "BB's" were the tips of the bullets he was using that were being ripped off as the bullet hit the feed ramp. Anyhow, just a point of caution. Maintenance is KEY to these guns. Keep them clean and well maintained, and they will probably become your favorite range gun. I love to shoot them. The weight and the semi auto function sure make it a nice gun to shoot.
 
AchiesBunker said:
Hi Fiddler,

THANKS so much for the reply! I'd like to buy some ammo tomorrow. When I buy Winchester .308 ammo, should I avoid the anything over 160 grain? Like, do they rate pressure on the ammo carton?

I've field stripped the rifle, however, as mentioned it's my first rifle. That being said, I haven't stripped the sight assembly or the trigger assembly. Now that I consider it, perhaps I haven't truely "field striped" the rifle. Anyway, your advice on keeping the rifle clean and serviced. Invaluable.

Thanks again,
AB
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Personally, my M305 does really well with 150gr bulk Norinco ammo. I've tried various soft points and a few homeloads but for sh*ts n giggles shooting steel targets you can't go wrong with bulk chinese ammo. Its cheap and it always goes bang. On a reasonable day I can get smaller than a 4 inch group at 100 yards with iron sights while using bulk norinco ammo.
 
Long before there was such a thing as the Internet, millions of rounds of .308 Win was fired out of thousands of milsurp battle rifles with no fuss. And vice versa.
'Slam Firing' is caused by improperly loaded ammo. Usually high primers. Has nothing whatever to do with the rifle or the price of the ammo.
No pressures of any box of ammo. No need to keep to 160 grains or less either. Match ammo runs 168's plus.
 
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