Converting a Lee fls die to a body die

sard

sard

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Did a quick search but didnt find anything... Has anyone tried converting a Lee fls die to a body die? If so how did it work out?

I'm thinking about trying it by removing the expander and opening the neck size section up to chamber specifications.

Thanks
 
I read in one of Jerry's previous posts (mystic precision)
A Lee FL die resizes as close to the minimum saami spec possible,
And let's say a redding body die, will resize as large as possible close to the max saami specs

If using a bolt action, working less the casings walls will keep more section of brass fireformed
 
As was mentioned by MartyK2500, Lee FL sizing dies go to min spec or under.

If you have a min spec/undersized chamber, it will work very nicely. Depending on the chamber you want to play with, there might be an option for a larger cal that eliminates the need to open up the die neck.

BUT most chambers are not to min/undersized spec so you will likely oversize your cases.

Now if you really want to play, you can look at FL sizing dies from other manfs. Some are larger then Lee by quite a bit....

Seems like alot of work to try and do what is already done.

Jerry
 
The minimum spec will work... I'm just looking to stop having to use the expander both for periodically bumping the sholder back when neck sizing and for full length sizing.

It's for a factory chamber. A little loose is ok with me for feeding reliability.
 
sard said:
The minimum spec will work... I'm just looking to stop having to use the expander both for periodically bumping the sholder back when neck sizing and for full length sizing.

It's for a factory chamber. A little loose is ok with me for feeding reliability.
Click to expand...


if you ream the die neck to what you need you may not be able size properly when using the expander.
there's a good reason so many dies use some kind of expander: it yields a consistent inner neck diameter.

that being said, the Lee dies are inexpensive so you should try your idea and document it here
 
sard said:
The minimum spec will work... I'm just looking to stop having to use the expander both for periodically bumping the sholder back when neck sizing and for full length sizing.

It's for a factory chamber. A little loose is ok with me for feeding reliability.
Click to expand...

I think a faster, more effective and ultimately less expensive route to do what I think you want to do is get a Redding Type S FL sizing die.

Honing a hardened steel die with very good precision is not easy. If you have the skill and tooling already, fly at it but trying to get anything done on shop rates, you will have plenty of change left over from the type S FL and bushing purchase.

Just keep in mind that if you size the headspace of a case 6 thou or more vs the chamber, the 2nd and certainly the third firing is going to lead to case head separation and that can provide all sorts of excitement.

And costs.... in my opinion, min spec sizing and a factory chamber might not be the best of combinations. Check all your dimensions before deciding how to proceed.

Jerry
 
My Lee .223 full length die will reduce case diameter more than my RCBS small base die does.

And the main purpose of a body die is to bump the shoulder back with minimal body diameter sizing.
 
Good advice, thanks.

What I'm mostly trying to do here is to stop using the expander (collet die then body die instead). The fls die I'm planning on using got me 14 reloads before I started having brass issues so it shouldn't be to bad (moved to neck sizing now).

I neck size and anneal every reload, and hopefully will be bumping the sholder back every by .002 every 5 reloads or so rather than full length sizing.

I've got the die and my local machinest says he can do it for a few dollars... I guess that depends on his definition of a few. Things are very slow right now so I may get a good deal. I'll know shortly.

If it's cost effective and if it gets me good results at the range I'll be ok with it (looking for better not perfect).

The Redding fls bushing die is nice though, and is probably as good as my Redding neck sizer at creating doughnuts lol!
 
Using a full length die with a expander is not the end of the world by any means. At the Whidden custom die website they tell you they get the most concentric ammunition using non-bushing full length dies. They also sell expander kits with five expanders from bullet diameter to .004 under bullet diameter.

"The non-bushing sizer die typically yields more concentric ammo in our experience. It also fully sizes the case neck fully to the shoulder for smoother functioning. Neck tension can only be determined by changing expander balls with the non-bushing die."
(my comment, no donuts with full length resizing with a expander)

http://www.whiddengunworks.com/standard-reloading-dies/

If you go to http://www.accurateshooter.com/ or http://benchrest.com/forumdisplay.php?6-Centerfire-Benchrest you will see the vast majority of benchrest and competitive shooters full length resize and neck sizing is a thing of the past. The only cartridge I neck size are my .303 British cases because FL dies will greatly over resize the cases and cause case head separations.

Y3IiYL5.jpg


I experimented with many different dies for my Savage .223 and the Forster full length benchrest die produced the least amount of neck runout of any dies below.
NOTE, after installing the Forster expander and spindle assemblies on my RCBS FL dies this also greatly reduced neck runout.

pltdloo.jpg


Below on the left the RCBS expander raised as high as it will go. On the right is the Forster high mounted floating expander that is self centering. The case neck is held and centered in the die when the expander enters the case neck and keeps the expander from pulling the necks off center.

5kfnKwd.jpg


Y7Iyv8o.jpg


Below a Forster expander and spindle assembly installed on my Redding .243 die. This beats dragging that long low mounted Redding expander through the case neck.

kWbieba.jpg


Bottom line, if you lube the inside of the case necks and use a expander that does not pull your necks off center there is nothing wrong with a standard full length die.

Signed
bigedp51
Full time member of the rat turd in the violin case club. ;)
 
sard said:
Good advice, thanks.

What I'm mostly trying to do here is to stop using the expander (collet die then body die instead). The fls die I'm planning on using got me 14 reloads before I started having brass issues so it shouldn't be to bad (moved to neck sizing now).

I neck size and anneal every reload, and hopefully will be bumping the sholder back every by .002 every 5 reloads or so rather than full length sizing.

I've got the die and my local machinest says he can do it for a few dollars... I guess that depends on his definition of a few. Things are very slow right now so I may get a good deal. I'll know shortly.

If it's cost effective and if it gets me good results at the range I'll be ok with it (looking for better not perfect).

The Redding fls bushing die is nice though, and is probably as good as my Redding neck sizer at creating doughnuts lol!
Click to expand...

If using a bushing die and you start seeing donuts, you aren't outside neck turning. ANY bushing or die that pushes material INTO the case neck needs the neck thickness to be even and consistent. Outside neck turning solves this issue. For precision ammo, consistent neck tension is critical to success. Outside neck turning and proper annealing is a cornerstone for better performance.

Plan B, Lee collet neck die where you size onto a mandrel... excess material is actually pushed to the outside cause the mandrel stops it from going inside.... where it should be removed by outside neck turning.

The final option is the expander ball which will also expand extra material to the outside BUT excessive runout can be created in this process SO.....

BY honing a FL sizing die larger to work without an expander ball, you have simply made a "fixed bushing" FL sizing die... you will create just as much donuts as with a Redding die. The neck material has to go somewhere.

Round and round we go...

Jerry
 
Neck sizing bushing dies come with a expander for reloaders who do not neck turn. A donut forms on neck turned cases as brass flows upward into the case neck. This is the thicker portion of the shoulder neck junction and when it flows upward it forms a thicker ring called a donut.

Bottom line, bushing dies work best with tighter custom chambers and neck turned brass. On a standard off the shelf rifle if you reduce the neck diameter .004 or more with a bushing die you will induce neck runout. This is why it is recommended to reduce the neck diameter in two step when reducing the neck diameter .004 or more.

I'm not running Jerry down or anyone else who uses bushing dies, "BUT" the average reloader with off the shelf factory rifles will be just fine using a standard non-bushing full length dies.

Example without annealing my .303 British cases using a standard RCBS neck sizing die with reduced loads I have gotten over 30 reloads before getting a cracked neck.

Redding FAQ

Question: Do I need to use the expander button that came with my Type "S" Die?

Answer: It is advisable to use an expander button to maintain consistent neck tension if the case necks have not been turned to a uniform wall thickness. However, the expander button can be replaced with the Decapping Pin Retainer (included with your Type "S" Die) if the user does not wish to use an expander button.

It makes no sense to use a bushing die without neck turning, you would be pushing the neck irregularities to the inside of the case neck. I have seen cases with over .009 thickness variations. I feel too much of what benchrest shooters do filters down to the average reloader that is simply not needed. Meaning bushing dies and neck turning with larger SAAMI chambers. Simply put with a SAAMI chamber the neck will expand far more than .004 and when the neck is sized your case will have more runout than you would have with a standard full length die.

NlyA8oI.png


NeckDonut_zps8a65effe.jpg


ts260donutx380.jpg


Many Other Cartridges Can Improve The AR-15’s Performance.
By Glen Zediker
https://gunsmagazine.com/alternate-ammo-options/

"Here’s a donut. They can even be in unfired cases. Glen made this one visible by running an
inside case neck reamer through a carefully sized case neck. Seating a bullet down into this
ain’t good. At best accuracy suffers. At worst, pressures spike."

AR-0715-2.jpg


So as you can see in the above photo if you use a expander in your dies the inside of the case neck will be uniform. This is because the defects will be pushed to the outside of the case neck. So again a expander is not the end of the world as many people claim. And if you have the right diameter expander and lube the inside of your case necks you will be just fine.
 
Last edited:
Hey...there is a lot here to absorb for a new guy...lots of different approaches to neck sizing...is there not a die that will size the outside of the neck on the down stroke and size the inside of the neck (with a floating bushing?) on the upstroke (while keeping the outside sized as well) so that any excess brass flows to the tip of the case, where it then only needs to be trimmed to length...thus avoiding outside neck turning and accomplishing desired ID and OD and being uniform?
 
NVShooter said:
Hey...there is a lot here to absorb for a new guy...lots of different approaches to neck sizing...is there not a die that will size the outside of the neck on the down stroke and size the inside of the neck (with a floating bushing?) on the upstroke (while keeping the outside sized as well) so that any excess brass flows to the tip of the case, where it then only needs to be trimmed to length...thus avoiding outside neck turning and accomplishing desired ID and OD and being uniform?
Click to expand...

Redding bushing dies come with a expander, with unturned necks if you size the neck slightly more than neck turned brass and use the expander it will make the inside of the neck concentric. Meaning the expander is what sets the neck diameter or neck tension and irons out the defects and the inside of the neck is then perfectly round.

The reloading tip above is in the Redding die FAQ

And not all dies size the necks and body the same amount, and this is where good dies come into play.

Look at the link below and how some dies over work the case necks.

Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
http://www.massreloading.com/dies_overworking_brass.html

overworked_table2.jpg


Whats funny is my RCBS small base die reduces the neck diameter less than my RCBS neck sizing die and my standard die below. (and like the chart above)

I bought the Forster .223 die below and was going to send it back to have the neck honed. But it was only working the neck .003 to .004 so I did not send the die back to Forster.
Many unturned case necks have more than .002 to .004 neck thickness variations, so the Forster full length die below works very well and doesn't over work the brass.

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/

pltdloo.jpg
 
NVShooter said:
Jerry, please educate me...what do you mean by "seeing donuts"?
Click to expand...

this is a thickening of the base of the case neck. You can form this when expanding a case ie 6.5-284 to 284, or 243 to 260... part of the shoulder now becomes part of the neck.

From firing... brass flows under pressure and builds up at the neck/shoulder junction.

From sizing... brass is push down to the base as it is squished in the sizing die. Bushing and reg neck or FL sizing dies will do this.

The affect is to cause a constriction in the case neck which can affect how the bullet is seated and released. At best, it can lead to irratic accuracy. At worst, it can elevate pressures to dangerous levels.

proper sizing and outside neck turn will keep this in check.

Jerry
 
bigedp51 said:
It makes no sense to use a bushing die without neck turning, you would be pushing the neck irregularities to the inside of the case neck. I have seen cases with over .009 thickness variations.


NeckDonut_zps8a65effe.jpg


ts260donutx380.jpg


Many Other Cartridges Can Improve The AR-15’s Performance.
By Glen Zediker
https://gunsmagazine.com/alternate-ammo-options/

"Here’s a donut. They can even be in unfired cases. Glen made this one visible by running an
inside case neck reamer through a carefully sized case neck. Seating a bullet down into this
ain’t good. At best accuracy suffers. At worst, pressures spike."

AR-0715-2.jpg
Click to expand...

Thanks Ed...good diagrams here. Still learning and this helps.

Regards
Ronr
 
Mystic Precision said:
this is a thickening of the base of the case neck.

From sizing... brass is push down to the base as it is squished in the sizing die. Bushing and reg neck or FL sizing dies will do this.

The affect is to cause a constriction in the case neck which can affect how the bullet is seated and released. At best, it can lead to irratic accuracy. At worst, it can elevate pressures to dangerous levels.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Noted. Learned a bit more here as well. Thanks Jerry.

Regards
Ronr

***edit...if I suspect donuts forming do inside reamers remove? I haven't noticed on PRVI or Lapua but the Federal stuff that I sectioned had some features starting like the photo's Ed posted. I chalked it up to Federal being soft but this has got me thinking a little bit. ***
 
When sizing cases, there really is 1 goal and the dimensions to get there, should be well understood.

in the world of true custom rifles, we literally control every spec, dimension and thus clearance. We don't need alot of fancy sizing dies cause we know what is going to fit.... cause we made it fit during assembly

In a factory rifle world, the reloader has no control over what the manf gives them... Suggesting one process to solve all might be over simplifying things and may not end up with a positive result. The clearances that resized ammo needs to work for best function and safety are again, well defined and pretty universal. The actual dimensions for each rifle can be wildly different.

And it is this wide range of dimensions that requires a reloader to consider a wider assortment of tools and techniques to ensure safe and reliable operation.

When you can't control the rifle, tools with a larger range of capabilities and flexibilities are needed so you can manipulate the case properly. Sometimes a basic sizing die actually fits... other times you may need multiple dies to control all the varied dimensions.

When you control the rifle, you know the answer before you even start.

Every form of reloading from dangerous game, precision and competition, to LEO/Mil have known dimensional tolerances for peak performance and safety

It is up to the reloader to understand this and to discuss to others in a way that leads to a positive outcome. I do not suggest a 1 size fits all approach because the vast majority of reloaders are working with rifles they did not spec out.

There are methods that cover the widest range of end use possibilities but a reloader must still be aware of what they are doing and what they are trying to achieve.

Because the shooting world has such wide allowable tolerances, care must be taken to not rely on terms and descriptions as "accurate".. measure the fired brass, the processed brass, see if they fit within safety limits and meet end use goals. If not, find the right tools to get the job done right.

That is the only true approach to reloading... and sometimes, the best answer is a complicated multi step approach....

Jerry
 
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