i'm about to buy a 1914ish 1911 that was part of the canadian order of 5000 at that time. anyone else got one of those or know much about them? the serial number is 91xx. how much you figure it's worth in well used but functional condition?
cool canadian WW1 1911...
- Thread starter curvy
- Start date
PerversPépère
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Shawinigan (Quebec)
curvy said:
BUY!!!PP.
Curvy:
All of the 5000 M1911's purchased by Canada were 1914-production "commercial" models - so serial numbers are all in the C5400 through C16599 range. Great piece of Canadian firearms militaria, if you can get it. Not really sure about value, especally without more information on condition - what price is being asked? Is it "C-broadarrow" marked, denoting Canadian government ownership? Actually, the majority of these pistols are not so marked, as they were sold to officers, who had to supply their own sidearms at (and all other kit) at personal expense.
I am fortunate enough to own one in 95%+ condition, # C10379 ...
All of the 5000 M1911's purchased by Canada were 1914-production "commercial" models - so serial numbers are all in the C5400 through C16599 range. Great piece of Canadian firearms militaria, if you can get it. Not really sure about value, especally without more information on condition - what price is being asked? Is it "C-broadarrow" marked, denoting Canadian government ownership? Actually, the majority of these pistols are not so marked, as they were sold to officers, who had to supply their own sidearms at (and all other kit) at personal expense.
I am fortunate enough to own one in 95%+ condition, # C10379 ...
upon further questioning, he's asking 700 CDN. and he says he had to replace the barrel. he still has the original barrel, but it needed replacing, apparently. also, he's replaced the front and rear sights, non destructively, and has the original sights. he sez he puts a box or two of ammo thru it a year, and the fit's a little loose. but you'd expect an old colt to be a little loose, no? even when it was newer, of that vintage, i'd think? and the finish is definitely worn.
i'd probly take it to a smithy before i shot it just to make sure it's up to snuff for use.
but i like 1911s anyway, and having one that is part of canadian history seems really cool to me. any more thoughts?
thanks for the info!
i'd probly take it to a smithy before i shot it just to make sure it's up to snuff for use.
but i like 1911s anyway, and having one that is part of canadian history seems really cool to me. any more thoughts?
thanks for the info!
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"...you'd expect an old Colt to be a little loose..." You'd expect any pistol used by the military to be a little loose. Some of 'em positively rattle. Target pistols they ain't.
Does the guy have any proof it was part of the 5,000?
Does the guy have any proof it was part of the 5,000?
Depending on condition, the price is not unreasonable - particularly if you are talking Canadian dollars - see if you can dicker him down a bit, but don't lose the deal over it ...
I understand that many of the Canadian WWI 1911's which were floating around got modified for use as IPSC-type competition guns - which has made "unmessed-with" examples less common.
Regarding your enquiry regarding "looseness" - original M1911 Colts of that era were very smooth and tight, but do loosen up and get a bit "sloppier" with significant use. On the other hand, my pistol (which was the personal sidearm of a WWI Major, who then owned it until he sold it to a young Canadian army lieutenant in WWII, who owned it until I acquired it from him a couple of years ago) has seen little use, and is very tight. Matter of fact, it is not even "broken in", really, and still has the very stiff trigger pull that was designed into them - because when adopted by the U.S. Governemnt in 1911, it was expected that much of its use would be by mounted troops (i.e. Cavalry, and such) and they didn't want a "hair trigger" pistol in that application.
By all means make sure the deal includes the original barrel and sights, and any other original bits, for collector value - but for shooting, keep the replacement parts on it. Another thing - hopefully it has the original magazine, not a replacement. The original mag for a pistol of that vintage should look like this:
As seen above, it should have a lanyard loop on the magazine floorplate (in addition to the lanyard loop on the bottom of the gripframe of the pistol) and the top 25% or so of the mag body will show signs of discoloration/lack of bluing - which is correct and proper, since Colt magazines of that era were heat-treated at that end (which either removed the finish, or prevented it from "taking" - I don't recall which.) Mind you, on a well-worn magazine, with most of the bluing gone, this colour difference can be hard to see.
Such original magazines are often missing from pistols of this vintage (having a later one for a replacement) but sell for at least $150 - $200 or so, by themselves! If the pistol you are looking at doesn't have an original magazine, that is one more strike against it as a collector's item, and in my view would definitely lower the value below the $700 level...
I understand that many of the Canadian WWI 1911's which were floating around got modified for use as IPSC-type competition guns - which has made "unmessed-with" examples less common.
Regarding your enquiry regarding "looseness" - original M1911 Colts of that era were very smooth and tight, but do loosen up and get a bit "sloppier" with significant use. On the other hand, my pistol (which was the personal sidearm of a WWI Major, who then owned it until he sold it to a young Canadian army lieutenant in WWII, who owned it until I acquired it from him a couple of years ago) has seen little use, and is very tight. Matter of fact, it is not even "broken in", really, and still has the very stiff trigger pull that was designed into them - because when adopted by the U.S. Governemnt in 1911, it was expected that much of its use would be by mounted troops (i.e. Cavalry, and such) and they didn't want a "hair trigger" pistol in that application.
By all means make sure the deal includes the original barrel and sights, and any other original bits, for collector value - but for shooting, keep the replacement parts on it. Another thing - hopefully it has the original magazine, not a replacement. The original mag for a pistol of that vintage should look like this:
As seen above, it should have a lanyard loop on the magazine floorplate (in addition to the lanyard loop on the bottom of the gripframe of the pistol) and the top 25% or so of the mag body will show signs of discoloration/lack of bluing - which is correct and proper, since Colt magazines of that era were heat-treated at that end (which either removed the finish, or prevented it from "taking" - I don't recall which.) Mind you, on a well-worn magazine, with most of the bluing gone, this colour difference can be hard to see.
Such original magazines are often missing from pistols of this vintage (having a later one for a replacement) but sell for at least $150 - $200 or so, by themselves! If the pistol you are looking at doesn't have an original magazine, that is one more strike against it as a collector's item, and in my view would definitely lower the value below the $700 level...
The Canadian-made pistols you refer to weren't produced by the Ross Rifle Company, but rather by the short-lived North American Arms Co., in the former Ross factory...
Here is a short blurb on the subject from a Model 1911 site:
Here is a short blurb on the subject from a Model 1911 site:
I too have heard about a small-time thug using a North American 1911 in some two-bit robbery, without realizing that his "piece" would probably have fetched $10,000 or more on the collector market. I've also heard that the pistol was confiscated and destroyed!
OneBarfly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I have one - It's seen better days, but I like it. Paid something like $400.00 right here. I also obtained the name of the person who owned it once upon a time. I was able to get his copies attestation papers as well. I can't say that he carried to gun, but it's not a stretch to think that he might have.
WWI military records
That's one of the neat things about Canadian WWI handguns - if you are fortunate enough to be able to link them to a particular individual (presumably an officer) then it is normally possible to locate at least their Canadian Expeditionary Force Attestation Paper or Officer's Declaration online at the Library and Archives Canada website. From there, you can usually order the man's entire CEF service records ....
I have a .455 Webley MKVI revolver with the name "Lt. S W Seago" engraved on the backstrap - turns out he was Canadian, served overseas, and was wounded on the opening morning of the Amiens Offensive in August 1918 - i.e. the day that the Canadian Corps finally broke the German line, marking the beginning of the end for Germany - and the start of what has been called "Canada's Hundred Days". His unit, the 116th Battalion, was right in the center of the Canadian Line, I gather, and part of the first wave of the attack.
Although my 1911 Colt (pictured above) was not engraved with its owner's name, it came to me with indisputable provenance (I acquired it from the man who bought it from the original owner) and had that original owner's information on the leather holster:
Maj. W.A. Mitchell
O/C No. 5 Coy.
2nd Div. Train, CEF
Turns out Major Mitchell served in the Canadian Army Service Corps (supply and transport). Although I haven't yet ordered his CEF file, I was able to locate several references to him in the War Diary of the Divisional Train for the Second Canadian Division - including one noting his appointment to command of No. 5 Company ... Here's a link to that particular page of the Diary, if anyone is interested - entries relating to Major Mitchell on July 4 & 11 (1916). Also note the very interesting entry for July 10 regarding the night-time movement of "Trench materials" up to the front lines ... "All wagon wheels were wrapped & tied with old rubber tire casings; all noise eliminated. Horses feet muffled."
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e060/e001484336.jpg
If you are interested - here is a link to the page where you can search for WWI service records:
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/020106_e.html
And here is where to search for Great War War Diaries:
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/020152_e.html
That's one of the neat things about Canadian WWI handguns - if you are fortunate enough to be able to link them to a particular individual (presumably an officer) then it is normally possible to locate at least their Canadian Expeditionary Force Attestation Paper or Officer's Declaration online at the Library and Archives Canada website. From there, you can usually order the man's entire CEF service records ....
I have a .455 Webley MKVI revolver with the name "Lt. S W Seago" engraved on the backstrap - turns out he was Canadian, served overseas, and was wounded on the opening morning of the Amiens Offensive in August 1918 - i.e. the day that the Canadian Corps finally broke the German line, marking the beginning of the end for Germany - and the start of what has been called "Canada's Hundred Days". His unit, the 116th Battalion, was right in the center of the Canadian Line, I gather, and part of the first wave of the attack.
Although my 1911 Colt (pictured above) was not engraved with its owner's name, it came to me with indisputable provenance (I acquired it from the man who bought it from the original owner) and had that original owner's information on the leather holster:
Maj. W.A. Mitchell
O/C No. 5 Coy.
2nd Div. Train, CEF
Turns out Major Mitchell served in the Canadian Army Service Corps (supply and transport). Although I haven't yet ordered his CEF file, I was able to locate several references to him in the War Diary of the Divisional Train for the Second Canadian Division - including one noting his appointment to command of No. 5 Company ... Here's a link to that particular page of the Diary, if anyone is interested - entries relating to Major Mitchell on July 4 & 11 (1916). Also note the very interesting entry for July 10 regarding the night-time movement of "Trench materials" up to the front lines ... "All wagon wheels were wrapped & tied with old rubber tire casings; all noise eliminated. Horses feet muffled."
http://data2.collectionscanada.ca/e/e060/e001484336.jpg
If you are interested - here is a link to the page where you can search for WWI service records:
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/020106_e.html
And here is where to search for Great War War Diaries:
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/020152_e.html
OneBarfly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
When I bought the pistols I asked the seller here for history. He contacted the person who he got it from and said that he bought it from the Widow of A.d. Fisken. Sure enough, i found his name in the archives. Wish wish that I knew more about his unit.
Cheers,
Rich
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc004/325077a.gif
Cheers,
Rich
http://data2.archives.ca/cef/gpc004/325077a.gif
GrantR said:
OneBarfly:
I see that Fisken was a Lieutenant when he attested, but reached the rank of Captain ... The answers given on line 9 of his Attestation indicate that he graduated from the Royal Military College in 1910 and, at time of attestation, was a Reserve Officer in the Governor General's Body Guard, which was a Reserve/Militia unit in Toronto (officially, it was then called "The Governor General's Body Guard for Upper Canada", and is now "The Governor General's Horse Guards".)
However, that does not mean that he served with that unit overseas in WWI, since the Canadian Expeditionary Force was made up entirely of numbered battalions, some of which were effectively continuations of existing units, but the majority of them were not. There was a lot of reassignment of men and officers between units, as well. The reference number given on Fisken's specific page on the website (i.e. RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 3114 - 21) is what you would need to order his entire service record from the Archives; the process for doing so is described here:
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/02/0201060101_e.html#consult
The cost is spelled out there (on a "per page" basis) - until they pull up the microfche records, they won't know how many pages are involved. However, for such a junior officer, I'd guess it wouldn't run to more than 40 or 50 pages, at most. Once you have the record, you can trace where he served, with what units, any wounds or the like, and so on. (The records can be a bit "cryptic" to decipher, since most of the specific entries will be in a sort of "military shorthand" - but as part of your order they will supply a few pages listing the majority of such abbreviations with their meanings. For example an entry such as "6/6/16 SOS 116th" followed by "6/6/16 TOS 125th" would translate as "6th June, 1916 - Struck Off Strength of 116th Battalion" and "(same date) - Taken On Strength of 125th Battalion" - the two entries together recording the man's transfer from one Battalion to another ...
I think having Lt. Seago's entire service record is a great adjunct to owning his pistol ... it certainly adds collector interest, and likely enhances its actual monetary value as a collector firearm.
I really must get around to ordering Maj. Mitchell's records, also - here's the link to his Attestation page in the online Archives:
Major William Arthur Mitchell
I see that Fisken was a Lieutenant when he attested, but reached the rank of Captain ... The answers given on line 9 of his Attestation indicate that he graduated from the Royal Military College in 1910 and, at time of attestation, was a Reserve Officer in the Governor General's Body Guard, which was a Reserve/Militia unit in Toronto (officially, it was then called "The Governor General's Body Guard for Upper Canada", and is now "The Governor General's Horse Guards".)
However, that does not mean that he served with that unit overseas in WWI, since the Canadian Expeditionary Force was made up entirely of numbered battalions, some of which were effectively continuations of existing units, but the majority of them were not. There was a lot of reassignment of men and officers between units, as well. The reference number given on Fisken's specific page on the website (i.e. RG 150, Accession 1992-93/166, Box 3114 - 21) is what you would need to order his entire service record from the Archives; the process for doing so is described here:
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/02/0201060101_e.html#consult
The cost is spelled out there (on a "per page" basis) - until they pull up the microfche records, they won't know how many pages are involved. However, for such a junior officer, I'd guess it wouldn't run to more than 40 or 50 pages, at most. Once you have the record, you can trace where he served, with what units, any wounds or the like, and so on. (The records can be a bit "cryptic" to decipher, since most of the specific entries will be in a sort of "military shorthand" - but as part of your order they will supply a few pages listing the majority of such abbreviations with their meanings. For example an entry such as "6/6/16 SOS 116th" followed by "6/6/16 TOS 125th" would translate as "6th June, 1916 - Struck Off Strength of 116th Battalion" and "(same date) - Taken On Strength of 125th Battalion" - the two entries together recording the man's transfer from one Battalion to another ...
I think having Lt. Seago's entire service record is a great adjunct to owning his pistol ... it certainly adds collector interest, and likely enhances its actual monetary value as a collector firearm.
I really must get around to ordering Maj. Mitchell's records, also - here's the link to his Attestation page in the online Archives:
Major William Arthur Mitchell
I should add that once you know what WWI Battalions your man served with, you can access the War Diaries of most of them online at the web location I gave earlier.
Another invaluable resource for finding online information about various Regiments (or other units) of Canada, or any other part of the British Empire and Commonwealth, is here: Land Forces of Britain, the Empire and Commonwealth.
Once you get there, click on the "Regiments" tab, and then scroll down to the general listing - then, opposite "Canada (1783-present)" you can select either the "Alphabetic" or "Numeric" listing. "Alphabetic" is where you want to go to search for a unit by name - such as "Governor General's Horse Guards" or "Black Watch of Canada" On the other hand, if you get your fellow's CEF service records, they will almost certainly list his unit(s) solely by Battalion number. In that case, you just use the "Numeric" list - which itemizes units by number - e.g. the "2nd Regiment (Queen's Own Rifles of Canada)" or the "116th Battalion, CEF", for example. Most unit names in the list are a clickable link which then takes you to a page about that specific regiment/unit (or its primary predecessor or successor unit) with a history of the unit, its reformulations, renamings, amalgamations with other units, and so on - right up to the present day (or until the unit was finally disbanded.) Many such pages also have live links to other webpages or online information sites about that unit. As an amateur military historian, I find the site to be an absolute goldmine!
Another invaluable resource for finding online information about various Regiments (or other units) of Canada, or any other part of the British Empire and Commonwealth, is here: Land Forces of Britain, the Empire and Commonwealth.
Once you get there, click on the "Regiments" tab, and then scroll down to the general listing - then, opposite "Canada (1783-present)" you can select either the "Alphabetic" or "Numeric" listing. "Alphabetic" is where you want to go to search for a unit by name - such as "Governor General's Horse Guards" or "Black Watch of Canada" On the other hand, if you get your fellow's CEF service records, they will almost certainly list his unit(s) solely by Battalion number. In that case, you just use the "Numeric" list - which itemizes units by number - e.g. the "2nd Regiment (Queen's Own Rifles of Canada)" or the "116th Battalion, CEF", for example. Most unit names in the list are a clickable link which then takes you to a page about that specific regiment/unit (or its primary predecessor or successor unit) with a history of the unit, its reformulations, renamings, amalgamations with other units, and so on - right up to the present day (or until the unit was finally disbanded.) Many such pages also have live links to other webpages or online information sites about that unit. As an amateur military historian, I find the site to be an absolute goldmine!
- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
A funny story about that. When the pistols were aquired, they only came with the original magazine. The Canadian Army had one hell of a time getting their ordnance to realise that they needed extra mags. (Some folks were still thinking they were like revolvers!)
Of course the same thinking applied to the British supply system. After the war, when units indented for HiPowers, the reply from the system was "You already have your full complememt of pistols" (.380 Enfields.)
Of course the same thinking applied to the British supply system. After the war, when units indented for HiPowers, the reply from the system was "You already have your full complememt of pistols" (.380 Enfields.)
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- Location
- Tucson, Arizona
Normmus said:
Guess I got lucky. There are TWO names stamped on my Webley, both lieutenants in the H.L.I. At least one survived the war as he is on the post war army list.
My .455 Colt new service also has a name scratched on it. Normaly that would be a bubba job, but in this case a Lt. in the Royal engineers who survived the war.
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These show up from time to time.The one we have is a CLH pistol carried by an officer of the 1st hussars from London Ontario.Interestingly the pistol was again carried again in WW2 by a 1st Hussar Squadron Commander.It has a mills mag pouch with the old two tone mags all still intact and named to the Hussar Major.He was in possession of the pistol himself until his death in the 1980's. A nice old artifact with awesome provenance.
LASTMAG
LASTMAG
