Would someone please explain this to me. I always read about the copper fouling and how evil it is, yet doesn't a bullet deposit a little bit every time it passes through a barrel and (for lack of a better term or explanation) fill in any low spots in the lands? I realize that a rifle needs to be cleaned when accuracy drops off, but maybe some fouling increases accuracy?
Copper fouling
- Thread starter KDX
- Start date
stevesummit
CGN Regular
- Location
- spruce grove
i have a few rifles that do prefer to shot dirty over clean my 223 likes 20-30 rounds through it before it settles in to shooting good groups
All barrels "foul", but it depends on how they were made that determines how much copper is left behind.
Check out this short, excellent video
It underscores the fact that all factory barrels are prone to fouling with copper, but the asymetrical distribution of imperfections within those barrels will mean copper accumulates in uneven patterns, this will scribe the bullet unevenly, cause the bullet to drag unevenly and result in a loss of accuracy.
Copper fouling that is a few molecules thick - it is argued - actually protects the barrel against wear. You are going to have metal-on-metal contact, so why not try and make it copper on copper to spare the wear on the rifling? Obsessively cleaning miniscule amounts of copper down to bear metal after every session may do little towards enhancing accuracy and do everything towards the accelleration of wear.
Proper match grade, lapped barrels are inherently predisposed towards resisting heavy copper accumulations.
Check out this short, excellent video
It underscores the fact that all factory barrels are prone to fouling with copper, but the asymetrical distribution of imperfections within those barrels will mean copper accumulates in uneven patterns, this will scribe the bullet unevenly, cause the bullet to drag unevenly and result in a loss of accuracy.
Copper fouling that is a few molecules thick - it is argued - actually protects the barrel against wear. You are going to have metal-on-metal contact, so why not try and make it copper on copper to spare the wear on the rifling? Obsessively cleaning miniscule amounts of copper down to bear metal after every session may do little towards enhancing accuracy and do everything towards the accelleration of wear.
Proper match grade, lapped barrels are inherently predisposed towards resisting heavy copper accumulations.
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350tracker
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Interlake Manitoba
I thought I read somewhere that copper left in a barrel will start to erode the barrel. Well, erode is a harsh word but isn’t there some kind of chemical reaction that happens when copper if left in a barrel for a period of time?
In rifles with slightly pitted barrels the fouling is actually a good thing. When you buy a used centerfire that was abused it will probably have pits in it. When you clean it properly it won't shoot wortha sh*t anymore and it sometimes takes thirty rounds before it is fouled enough to shoot accurately.
copper left in and damaging a barrel is a common myth. Harsh copper solvents however can certainly cause micro-pitting, and over-use of phosphor brushes (or simply using a non-bronze brush) can definitely harm a barrel with repeated use. Billdick is correct.
wow!!!!!!!!
^ Awesome video... Although there are some factory barrels with mirror finishes as well, but I don't know if their rifling would be that clean wow
So how do Hart, Lilja and Krieger compare? (and be objective, Mister "Canada's source for Krieger Custom Barrels"
)
So how do Hart, Lilja and Krieger compare? (and be objective, Mister "Canada's source for Krieger Custom Barrels"
)
So far I've scoped lilja, Pac-nor, Shilen, Douglas, Bartlein, Rock Creek, Gaillard, Brux, and even a King barrel. All of them looked like the lilja in the video. Lapped custom barrels just do not compare to factory barrels.
The flaw with the factory barrel in the video not typical from what I have seen however the finish is. I have seen some pretty bad stuff in brand new factory barrels though. On of the worst was in a brand new savage 300WSM barrel that was missing two of the lands in the first 3/8" of the throat. The gun just would not shoot under 1.5 MOA no matter what. Changed the barrel to a Brux and ran some cheep factory ammo through it and was shooting 3/4 MOA within the first 10 shots. Have not had any time to do further testing but I’m confident it will be shooting 1/2 MOA or better with a good load. This is all from just changing the barrel.
Dave
The flaw with the factory barrel in the video not typical from what I have seen however the finish is. I have seen some pretty bad stuff in brand new factory barrels though. On of the worst was in a brand new savage 300WSM barrel that was missing two of the lands in the first 3/8" of the throat. The gun just would not shoot under 1.5 MOA no matter what. Changed the barrel to a Brux and ran some cheep factory ammo through it and was shooting 3/4 MOA within the first 10 shots. Have not had any time to do further testing but I’m confident it will be shooting 1/2 MOA or better with a good load. This is all from just changing the barrel.
Dave
When I was target shooting with quality staniless barrels (Madco, Kreiger and McClennan) I only cleaned about every 250 rounds. Even then i was not sure it needed cleaning, but I just felt guilty.
Cleaning changes things. The first few shots may be a bit different and in some match situations, the first few shots will be in a match.
Also, cleaning is a source of wear and poor technique can ruin a barrel.
If the rifle is going to be put aside for a while, I clean it, oil the barrel, and store it muzzle down, so nothing flows back into the bedding and trigger.
Cleaning changes things. The first few shots may be a bit different and in some match situations, the first few shots will be in a match.
Also, cleaning is a source of wear and poor technique can ruin a barrel.
If the rifle is going to be put aside for a while, I clean it, oil the barrel, and store it muzzle down, so nothing flows back into the bedding and trigger.
Factory barrels are factory barrels. About the only exception I can think of seems to be Tikka. Their hammer-forging is pretty damned good and their bores are quite impressive. My experience with them is that they are consistently accurate. I have owned a few now. They are not a cut barrel however and can theoretically have the same issues with varaiblility in bore diameter and latent stresses as any not-cut barrel.
Before this spurs another pointless brand debate, I was shooting with members of the US Team Savage last year and I asked about their rifles. They had all been given tours of the factory and been there for the whole manufacturing process. They all stated that if we actually looked down the barrels, you'd never buy one. They are just as crude as Remingtons and just as crooked. Being a crooked crude barrel does not mean it will not shoot well, as these rifles prove time and time again. It does however point to the fact that quality in almost all factory barrels is highly variable and sometimes just a bit too much of one flaw makes the rifle a mediocre shooter. The barrels made for an Remington SPS and a 700P are all made in the same places. You stand an equal chance of getting that magic barrel with a 710 as you do with rifles costing 4 times as much.
If you're referring to their interior finishes, I would say they are all probably on par. Add the rest of the custom barrels to the mix as well. Shilen, Gaillard, etc. The exceptions would be Ron Smith and Mick McPhee. They do not ascribe to the lapping of barrels. All Button barrels have to be extensively lapped to even out areas where steel springs back after buttoning.
Before this spurs another pointless brand debate, I was shooting with members of the US Team Savage last year and I asked about their rifles. They had all been given tours of the factory and been there for the whole manufacturing process. They all stated that if we actually looked down the barrels, you'd never buy one. They are just as crude as Remingtons and just as crooked. Being a crooked crude barrel does not mean it will not shoot well, as these rifles prove time and time again. It does however point to the fact that quality in almost all factory barrels is highly variable and sometimes just a bit too much of one flaw makes the rifle a mediocre shooter. The barrels made for an Remington SPS and a 700P are all made in the same places. You stand an equal chance of getting that magic barrel with a 710 as you do with rifles costing 4 times as much.
If you're referring to their interior finishes, I would say they are all probably on par. Add the rest of the custom barrels to the mix as well. Shilen, Gaillard, etc. The exceptions would be Ron Smith and Mick McPhee. They do not ascribe to the lapping of barrels. All Button barrels have to be extensively lapped to even out areas where steel springs back after buttoning.
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- Location
- Hillbilly shack in the boonies
Not a big deal, if you have a very rough bore, lap it. If it shoots well after cleaning most of it , bonus
