Critique my immediate action & reload drills
- Thread starter Pooker
- Start date
Agree with this one. If anyone has seen Travis Haleys Adaptive Kalash, he uses this method.
I personally think going under is only faster for an AK. Just slapping the bolt handle will bring the gun into battery... you don't really need that full range of motion. With a LHS or ambi bolt carrier I don't think it would be that different than hitting the bolt release on an AR-15.
Of course an actual NEA bolt release is faster still though... probably not much slower than an AR-15 on the whole? Others with more experience than I might chime in, this is all purely academic to me- I don't serve or compete.
Major Sights
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Westlock, AB
I thought about it, but 2 of my mags (only a few weeks old and only fired about 5-10 rounds out of each) seem to not catch the bolt back when empty. So I just keep training like I have to man-handle that bolt every time.
North Eastern Arms
Manufacturer-Business Member
This is the drill I used to get my VZ reload speed up. I call it the 1-5 drill. Fill all your mags with one, two, three, four, or five rounds. Mix them up, load up your kit and have at it. I don't do the mag retention jig.. I have 20 mags, and I'm not likely to lose one on the range.. and I'm not shooting from the streets of some sh!thole anymore. So for range and competition, just get em out and feed the pig. The trick is to keep your brain from thinking ahead. If you're reacting you can program a repetitive drill faster.
That's just for reload drills. For IA drills I load 5 rnds into all mags, but I mix in a percentage of dummy reloads I have made (spent rounds with reseated bullet). For an IA drill, you don't toss the mag, you correct and reload.
These are easy drills and you can really kick up your speed. (BTW, this works with any platform, not just the VZ).
[youtube]Y2ZovkHRjg0[/youtube]
BTW.. the few times I have had to do an real IA on the VZ, I have reverted to the traditional reach-over AK-style drill. I spent so much time on the VZ before I designed the bolt release that even with the practice after the fact, when it happens that's what my brain goes to.
The NEA bolt release is the only way to fly, IMO.
Other than that it looks about right to me. As far as I'm concerned, dump pouches are for partials and shooting 5 round mags, I never have those. Empties are not useful to me in the immediate moment and my feeling is that if I'm on the range, I'll just walk back and pick them up after, and if I'm not, and #### is still so ####ed up that I have a 58 in my hands and I emptied a mag and need more ammo, that is a time when I do not want ANYTHING to slow down my reload. I will worry about where the empties are later.
I don't count rounds, personally.
Also, running one mag on your belt (or two if you are stuck with 5 rounders as we are) is much, much quicker than dragging one out of your chest rig. I reload from the belt, then backfeed my belt when I have time.
Other than that it looks about right to me. As far as I'm concerned, dump pouches are for partials and shooting 5 round mags, I never have those. Empties are not useful to me in the immediate moment and my feeling is that if I'm on the range, I'll just walk back and pick them up after, and if I'm not, and #### is still so ####ed up that I have a 58 in my hands and I emptied a mag and need more ammo, that is a time when I do not want ANYTHING to slow down my reload. I will worry about where the empties are later.
I don't count rounds, personally.
Also, running one mag on your belt (or two if you are stuck with 5 rounders as we are) is much, much quicker than dragging one out of your chest rig. I reload from the belt, then backfeed my belt when I have time.
the_klenzer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver, BC
For the over vs under bolt release... Rotate the rifle 90 degrees to the left, it'll point the release straight up over the top, making it super fast to release. It keeps the business end pointed the right way and is much faster and intuitive than going under.
Yeah, if you're working without the tac release, I prefer over to under, rotate the gun. I understand the argument that it's a little shorter to get underneath, considering where your hand is after you've inserted a mag. But I find it a bit awkward and prefer going over top.
BUT I would never tell anyone that one way or the other is the only way to do it...there are good arguments for both. I find over the top works for me, but if someone else would rather go underneath, I would say rock on.
You don't notice it with 5 rounders, but with a full 30 rounder as those of us who have shot VZs and AKs in the US have often used, rotating the gun is a little slower. Not five seconds slower or anything, but enough that you can notice it on a timer. Or I can, anyway. I still go OTT, though.
I avoid the issue by using the NEA release and IMO it's the best mod I have done short of mounting a T1 on the thing. My mag changes are done at nearly AR speed, which is pretty good for an old war horse like the 58.
I think it's possible that if I did not mount the release, I'd have gone to an underneath reach, just because I think it's faster. But since I rarely have to do anything with the bolt, it's more practical for me to do what I believe to be more intuitive. I guess I'd compare it to using the slide release on a pistol vs. using the overhand rack: if you have a pistol that auto-forwards 100% of the time, and then you have to borrow someone else's pistol, and it doesn't auto-forward for you, you may be better of racking it to put it in battery after a reload, even if using the slide release is faster for anyone trained that way. If your pistol doesn't auto-forward, you train to use the release, and take advantage of the extra speed.
It's kind of a ####ed up analogy, I guess, because I don't really equate the NEA release, which I love, with auto-forwarding, which I hate. I am just trying to illustrate that going under is probably faster than going over, but I don't train that way, because the NEA release is much faster than either, and if I have to borrow someone else's gun, I'll go over so I don't #### it up.
BUT I would never tell anyone that one way or the other is the only way to do it...there are good arguments for both. I find over the top works for me, but if someone else would rather go underneath, I would say rock on.
You don't notice it with 5 rounders, but with a full 30 rounder as those of us who have shot VZs and AKs in the US have often used, rotating the gun is a little slower. Not five seconds slower or anything, but enough that you can notice it on a timer. Or I can, anyway. I still go OTT, though.
I avoid the issue by using the NEA release and IMO it's the best mod I have done short of mounting a T1 on the thing. My mag changes are done at nearly AR speed, which is pretty good for an old war horse like the 58.
I think it's possible that if I did not mount the release, I'd have gone to an underneath reach, just because I think it's faster. But since I rarely have to do anything with the bolt, it's more practical for me to do what I believe to be more intuitive. I guess I'd compare it to using the slide release on a pistol vs. using the overhand rack: if you have a pistol that auto-forwards 100% of the time, and then you have to borrow someone else's pistol, and it doesn't auto-forward for you, you may be better of racking it to put it in battery after a reload, even if using the slide release is faster for anyone trained that way. If your pistol doesn't auto-forward, you train to use the release, and take advantage of the extra speed.
It's kind of a ####ed up analogy, I guess, because I don't really equate the NEA release, which I love, with auto-forwarding, which I hate. I am just trying to illustrate that going under is probably faster than going over, but I don't train that way, because the NEA release is much faster than either, and if I have to borrow someone else's gun, I'll go over so I don't #### it up.
Will the NEA bolt catch work with the ambi mag release as well?
One of the things I enjoy about the ambi release is that you can hit it with your right hand index finger and knock the dead mag out with your fresh one. I haven't tried this live, but in practice reloads it works well.
One of the things I enjoy about the ambi release is that you can hit it with your right hand index finger and knock the dead mag out with your fresh one. I haven't tried this live, but in practice reloads it works well.
No, you most probably won't. It's not made of plastic.
Yes it will, that's how I'm set up.
The thing to remember is you will do what you practice in the case of a real emergency. If you take each empty mag and carefully stuff them in a pocket you will do that exact action under stress. Cops who have been shot in the line of duty have been found with empty mags/speed loaders in their pockets. During the shootout they stopped to put them in their pockets. During training I was taught to let the mag drop free. A dump bag works as well as long as you you always have one.
Great try at the reload drills! Keep at it, it gets to be fun, and automatic! 
Aside from some already excellent points made here already, here's a couple of things you can introduce to make it even more challenging once you sort out some of the little things you are working on.
- Movement: Just like in video games if you stop moving someone will shoot you. So, pretend this is a two way range and when you have an empty mag or stoppage, move (shuffle quickly) 2 steps left or right. Do your IA or reload, then move back in front of your target and carry on the drill.
- Stoppage Inducement: If you happen to be shooting with a friend, have them load your mags for your. They can put in a dummy round, or two in each mag randomly forcing you to run your IA's and stoppages drills without you knowing when it will happen.
If you shoot with 2 people it gets even more fun, get a couple of targets, decide on a course of fire, ie, double taps on targets, two targets one round each etc... The game goes like this...
BANG BANG BANG click...
shooter one - Stoppage! (yell it out so your buddy can hear you!!)
shooter two - Covering!!
shooter two now finishes with his target(s) first and then covers your target either simply visually, or can drop rounds on it as well
shooter one moves, reloads and puts one round on target from that position then yells
shooter one - Ready!!
(lets your partner know your rifle is "up" again)
shooter two - OK!
acknowledges that you are back in the game.
Repeat for when your partner runs out or has a stoppage Lots of fun
Obviously if you both just shoot off 5 round mags you will run out at the same time, so either induce stoppages, or the shooters loads fewer rounds in mags (5 in one, 4 in one 2 in one, that kind of thing) so both shooters get to run the stoppage drill and do the covering..
- More movement: Try firing rounds as you are walking forward, when you run out of ammo, change your mag while maintaining forward movement and carry on the drill.
As mentioned, dump pouches are great for "administrative" reloads where you have a mag with a couple of rounds left in it.
Someone already mentioned the "change after 4 rounds" idea, this also works into a nice drill.... Have two targets, say a metre or so apart. 5 round mag, stand in front of a target, fire 2 rounds, move to your left, or right, wherever the next target is and fire 2 rounds.
You now have one round left in your chamber, do you:
a) reload and have 6 so you can do three more sets of left target right target
b) move to the next target and fire one round and practice a reload drill? (move 2 steps then reload, move back and fire the next round)
Up to you, but you can play with it to practice moving and reloads at the same time.
EDIT: Please do any of the movement stuff carefully so if you are shooting with someone else, no one is moving ahead of the others muzzle.
Aside from some already excellent points made here already, here's a couple of things you can introduce to make it even more challenging once you sort out some of the little things you are working on.
- Movement: Just like in video games if you stop moving someone will shoot you. So, pretend this is a two way range and when you have an empty mag or stoppage, move (shuffle quickly) 2 steps left or right. Do your IA or reload, then move back in front of your target and carry on the drill.
- Stoppage Inducement: If you happen to be shooting with a friend, have them load your mags for your. They can put in a dummy round, or two in each mag randomly forcing you to run your IA's and stoppages drills without you knowing when it will happen.
If you shoot with 2 people it gets even more fun, get a couple of targets, decide on a course of fire, ie, double taps on targets, two targets one round each etc... The game goes like this...
BANG BANG BANG click...
shooter one - Stoppage! (yell it out so your buddy can hear you!!)
shooter two - Covering!!
shooter two now finishes with his target(s) first and then covers your target either simply visually, or can drop rounds on it as well
shooter one moves, reloads and puts one round on target from that position then yells
shooter one - Ready!!
(lets your partner know your rifle is "up" again)
shooter two - OK!
acknowledges that you are back in the game.
Repeat for when your partner runs out or has a stoppage
Lots of fun Obviously if you both just shoot off 5 round mags you will run out at the same time, so either induce stoppages, or the shooters loads fewer rounds in mags (5 in one, 4 in one 2 in one, that kind of thing) so both shooters get to run the stoppage drill and do the covering..
- More movement:
Try firing rounds as you are walking forward, when you run out of ammo, change your mag while maintaining forward movement and carry on the drill.As mentioned, dump pouches are great for "administrative" reloads where you have a mag with a couple of rounds left in it.
Someone already mentioned the "change after 4 rounds" idea, this also works into a nice drill.... Have two targets, say a metre or so apart. 5 round mag, stand in front of a target, fire 2 rounds, move to your left, or right, wherever the next target is and fire 2 rounds.
You now have one round left in your chamber, do you:
a) reload and have 6 so you can do three more sets of left target right target
b) move to the next target and fire one round and practice a reload drill? (move 2 steps then reload, move back and fire the next round)
Up to you, but you can play with it to practice moving and reloads at the same time.
EDIT: Please do any of the movement stuff carefully so if you are shooting with someone else, no one is moving ahead of the others muzzle.
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