majormarine
CGN Regular
- Location
- Lower Mainland, BC
cut vs button rifled barrel
which one is better? in terms of accuracy, durability, etc?
Thanks!
which one is better? in terms of accuracy, durability, etc?
Thanks!
cut vs button rifled barrel
- Thread starter majormarine
- Start date
Each has the potential for exceptional accuracy; it all depends on many factors.
Here is an excellent article that gives you the facts to decide for yourself.
http://riflebarrels.ca/html/rrel_facts_-_new_.html
Cut barrels have many advantages and few if any drawbacks. Each barrel maker makes good barrels and each comes out with a dog from time to time, but the manufacturing process favours cut rifling for consistency, greater % of "good barrels" and longevity.
Here is an excellent article that gives you the facts to decide for yourself.
http://riflebarrels.ca/html/rrel_facts_-_new_.html
Cut barrels have many advantages and few if any drawbacks. Each barrel maker makes good barrels and each comes out with a dog from time to time, but the manufacturing process favours cut rifling for consistency, greater % of "good barrels" and longevity.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Some makers of cut barrels also cut slightly deeper than is possible with the button process which is always the same depth. A barrel with deeper lands can last longer. Check out the articles on this subject on both the Krieger and Obermyer web-sites.
Glock4ever
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Edmonton, AB
I have heard that cut-rifled barrels are superior to button rifling in a few areas: wear - Krieger mentions that their barrels wear slower (I don't know if this is true), accuracy - that button rifling introduces stress into the metal and could possibly lead to inaccurate barrels, and rifling twist (more twists are available to cut rifling). Except for the last one I don't think any of this is true but I am not a metallurgist. I do know that cut rifled barrels offer more twists because of the production methods. I had excellent luck with both types to date though.
Cut barrels are superior in a number of areas. For one thing, the rates of twist are considerably more accurate. Ramming the button through different areas of homogeneity in the steel results in inconsistent rates of twist as the button can "drag" rather than rifle.
The big issue is the stress. Displacing the steel to create rifling stresses the steel a great deal, and while good-quality button barrels undergo a process of stress-relieving, it does not completely remove all stress. Because the bore of a button-rifled barrel "springs-back", the bore is typically uneven and requires extensive lapping, and the lapping required in itself can be detrimental. A barrel with latent stresses will change dimensionally to a marked degree when heated. Buttoned barrels should never be fluted because of the latent stresses and fluting is a mechanical form of stress relieving.
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I know Mick McPhee is highly critical of one buttoned barrel maker, due to the markedly uneven bores he has come across as a result of short-lapping.
Having said all that, there are some very good button rifled barrels out there, and Dennis is right, that a number of BR records have been set with them but I highly doubt many of these records were being set with barrels that had 2500 rounds down the pipe.
One of the best BR shooters in the world - Lester Bruno - is a cut rifled barrel fanatic. I would also say - anecdotally - that F-Class tends to be dominated by cut rifled barrels, where the choice of cartridges prefers longer barrels.
The big issue is the stress. Displacing the steel to create rifling stresses the steel a great deal, and while good-quality button barrels undergo a process of stress-relieving, it does not completely remove all stress. Because the bore of a button-rifled barrel "springs-back", the bore is typically uneven and requires extensive lapping, and the lapping required in itself can be detrimental. A barrel with latent stresses will change dimensionally to a marked degree when heated. Buttoned barrels should never be fluted because of the latent stresses and fluting is a mechanical form of stress relieving.
.
I know Mick McPhee is highly critical of one buttoned barrel maker, due to the markedly uneven bores he has come across as a result of short-lapping.
Having said all that, there are some very good button rifled barrels out there, and Dennis is right, that a number of BR records have been set with them but I highly doubt many of these records were being set with barrels that had 2500 rounds down the pipe.
One of the best BR shooters in the world - Lester Bruno - is a cut rifled barrel fanatic. I would also say - anecdotally - that F-Class tends to be dominated by cut rifled barrels, where the choice of cartridges prefers longer barrels.
majormarine
CGN Regular
- Location
- Lower Mainland, BC
so the summary:
cut rifled is more expensive to product but it introduce no stress on the metal. on the other hand, button rifled is easier to product but it introduces stress on the metal. also, cut rifled has higher consistent quality because of its manufacturing process.
however, i think for recreational benchrest shooting, where we are allow to rest the rifle between shots so that the barrel will not become hot, there shouldn't be too much different between cut and button. in fact, when breaking in a barrel, button is easier to be broken because it doesn't have the sharp edges introduced by cutting.
and then there is hammered rifled barrels...in the link provided by Obtunded (Thanks!), it mentions the MG42s uses hammered rifled barrels because of their high rate of fire (1200 rounds/min)!
what about Remington 700P and LTR? i read on the Net that they are hammered? Savage 10FP is more inferior as it is buttoned?
cut rifled is more expensive to product but it introduce no stress on the metal. on the other hand, button rifled is easier to product but it introduces stress on the metal. also, cut rifled has higher consistent quality because of its manufacturing process.
however, i think for recreational benchrest shooting, where we are allow to rest the rifle between shots so that the barrel will not become hot, there shouldn't be too much different between cut and button. in fact, when breaking in a barrel, button is easier to be broken because it doesn't have the sharp edges introduced by cutting.
and then there is hammered rifled barrels...in the link provided by Obtunded (Thanks!), it mentions the MG42s uses hammered rifled barrels because of their high rate of fire (1200 rounds/min)!
what about Remington 700P and LTR? i read on the Net that they are hammered? Savage 10FP is more inferior as it is buttoned?
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There is no difference in pricing between cut and buttoned barrels generally. The investment in terms of time and in terms of money is both equally great, therefore it comes down to personal choice, and who has a reputation for producing the most consistent product to limit the possibility you'll get a mediocre barrel. That is what got me into the barrel thing... waiting 6 months for a barrel (From a Canadian maker no less) , waiting several more months to have it built and then finding out that it was a crappy barrel! I researched what barrels have the best reputations for consistency, accuracy and longevity and that brought me to Krieger. I've been beated by shooters using barrels of many different sources, but the fault was mine - certainly not the barrel's!
Cut barrels do not have "sharp Edges" because they are also lapped (except McPhee and Smith here in Canada do not lap) and the cutter head profile would prevent it.
6mmbr.com has some excellent info on barrels and there is an interesting poll that shows you the most popular brands.
Cut barrels do not have "sharp Edges" because they are also lapped (except McPhee and Smith here in Canada do not lap) and the cutter head profile would prevent it.
6mmbr.com has some excellent info on barrels and there is an interesting poll that shows you the most popular brands.
many rifle mfgs use hammer forged barrels simply because it is much more cost effective though I have seen some very accurate forged barrels.. there are both excellent cut rifled and buttoned rifle barrels out there to choose from.. it comes down to personal choice... for my money a Kreiger cut rifled barrel is as good as it gets...
I have a Mike Rock 22" M24 contour single point cut rifled barrel in a custom Remington 700 and 2 H-S precisions, both which have cut rifled barrels as well. Compared to a stock Remington 700P which I also have with a chrome moly hammer forged barrel, there is no comparision. The Rock barrel and the two H-S guns consistently shoot 1/2 moa or better if I do my part, which is not nearly enough however the 700p is a moa to 1.5 moa rifle at best. I don't reload but shoot only match rounds through the rifles.
These fellows have been makeing some fine barrels that have won many shoots.
Hart Barrels
Button rifling is a barrel making process, in which a carbide button is pushed through a rifle barrel under pressure to displace metal to make the twist in a barrel. We believe that this type of rifling method is superior to other methods as it maintains a more uniform twist rate and depth of groove. Once you have a good button every barrel is the same as the last. Other methods require many passes to make one barrel, making it more difficult to produce uniform results.
Hart Barrels
Button rifling is a barrel making process, in which a carbide button is pushed through a rifle barrel under pressure to displace metal to make the twist in a barrel. We believe that this type of rifling method is superior to other methods as it maintains a more uniform twist rate and depth of groove. Once you have a good button every barrel is the same as the last. Other methods require many passes to make one barrel, making it more difficult to produce uniform results.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
There are fans for either method of manf. Records have been set and reset by both.
Super accurate button rifled barrels at 30" are just as common as cut rifle.
There are more top tier barrel makers using button vs cut.
The most accurate barrel I have shot was button rifled.
Pricing usually favors the button rifled blank,
Neither will dope the wind for you
Uniformity, consistency, and proper stress relieving will do more then the style the rifling was cut. If there was a clear winner, that style of rifling would dominate. We have only been debating this since the 50's.
Plenty of both made everyday...
Jerry
Super accurate button rifled barrels at 30" are just as common as cut rifle.
There are more top tier barrel makers using button vs cut.
The most accurate barrel I have shot was button rifled.
Pricing usually favors the button rifled blank,
Neither will dope the wind for you
Uniformity, consistency, and proper stress relieving will do more then the style the rifling was cut. If there was a clear winner, that style of rifling would dominate. We have only been debating this since the 50's.
Plenty of both made everyday...
Jerry
Unfortunately we don't seem to have any barrel makers here right now for comment. If one was clearly better than the other then the other would not exist and we would all buy only one type. It seems kind of hard to buy a bad barrel these days and we would all be better off by burning through a few for practice. I have a friend that put over 12,000 308 through a certain barrel in international competition but he would also be the first to say it has not happened with any barrel since!
There has been a significant increase in the number of BR matches won with cut rifled barrels in recent years for one reason; Krieger! His basic metodology is no different than any cut rifled barrelmaker but his attention to detail and consistency is better. In years past one would buy 10 A&M barrels to get two real good ones while ten Harts would get you seven or eight winners. Krieger's barrels though, are good enough to equal the best buttoned barrels on a regular basis.
I believe it is easier to make a pretty good barrel by bottoning but to make a superb barrel is just as difficult either way. Both methods require that the barrel be drilled straight and reamed smoothly to a precise dimension.
Many button riflers are controlling the twist rate positively and not relying on the button to produce the twist so the twist is very uniform.
Back in the late seventies, a fellow by the name of Bob Scherer was making a pretty nice cut rifled barrel. A couple of Oregon shooters came up to Clearwater and were shooting these barrels and shooting them real well. Impressed I bought three and tried them and was a solid fan of Hart's buttoned barrels thereafter! Sherer's barrels were a nice barrel but the Harts were just less fussy and didn't foul as readily.
None of this applies to Krieger's barrels though and I'm sure they are as good as the best buttoned barrel out there. I'm just as sure they are no better. Regards, Bill
I believe it is easier to make a pretty good barrel by bottoning but to make a superb barrel is just as difficult either way. Both methods require that the barrel be drilled straight and reamed smoothly to a precise dimension.
Many button riflers are controlling the twist rate positively and not relying on the button to produce the twist so the twist is very uniform.
Back in the late seventies, a fellow by the name of Bob Scherer was making a pretty nice cut rifled barrel. A couple of Oregon shooters came up to Clearwater and were shooting these barrels and shooting them real well. Impressed I bought three and tried them and was a solid fan of Hart's buttoned barrels thereafter! Sherer's barrels were a nice barrel but the Harts were just less fussy and didn't foul as readily.
None of this applies to Krieger's barrels though and I'm sure they are as good as the best buttoned barrel out there. I'm just as sure they are no better. Regards, Bill
