CZ-858 questions....trying to close in on a purchase decision

CanuckShooter

CanuckShooter

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Well I have read a lot about the CZ-858 the past week or so, and after handling one for the first time today I LOVED it, and almost wanted to walkout with one. But... after I got home, and was reading info I had bookmarked which touched on the downsides of the rifle I lost my enthusiasm pretty quickly.

Is anyone here willing to openly discuss what they would consider as the CONS or negatives of the rifle that one should consider/be aware of before buying it? I know some people might get offended, but let's be realistic.... all guns have some sort of cons. But knowing about these ahead of time can allow one to either pass on the purchase and find something better suited, or move ahead with the purchase and at least know about the negatives in advance so they are not caught off guard.



1. I have read that the Gremlin is caused by either a problem with the striker or the carrier. Tabbed carriers seem to be on the way from a number of manufacturers. So my questions is... has it been established, unequivocally, that a tabbed carrier will COMPLETELY and without exception, eliminate the CZ Gremlin? This is the big CON for me, as I figure if I am paying almost $800 after taxes, how am I possibly getting a gun that could possibly not reset after every few rounds. But if I know that the tabbed carrier is absolutey fail-proof, working 100% of the time then I can live with that.

2. How susceptible is a non-chrome lined bore to rust when shooting corrosive ammo? I have no experience doing so, and am still a bit unclear as to how thorough you must be (just the barrel... or action and gas system as well?), and just how soon after firing does the gun need to be cleaned. I think it is cool that Rauch Tactical is offering the finishing service, but for me that will add too much to the cost of the gun.

3. What is the typical accuracy one can expect from this rifle, using open sights with a front rest, shooting Czech surplus at 100yds? Is it significantly better than the accuracy using open sights, a rest and surplus ammo through an exc condition SKS? I have seen people say the CZ barely edges out the SKS in accuracy, and some say that the difference is night and day. I don't know what to believe really.

4. Is it true that these guns are essentially refurbished in that they were made from used parts which could have seen a very high round count?

5. Are there any other quirks that one should know about? Any weak points? For instance, I have read that the mags are made of thin aluminum and KevinB had hinted at them not being very tough. Another problem I came across was someone who overtightened the trigger guard screw and completely stripped/warped the hole which seems a bit odd. Any parts/mechanisms that are easily broken/fragile? The sticky hinted at the possibility that the locking plate might be fragile? Also, I see that the locking piece broke on a CGN'ers after a certain number of rounds. Is that common?



I do apologize for the length of this post :redface::redface:.

I would greatly appreciate any advice the CZ owners here could give me on the above topics, or any that I didn't even mention. I hope nobody thinks I am slagging the gun (as I would really like to buy one), just looking for honest criticisms if there are any so I can make an informed purchase, or not. Also, FWIW I actually like the furniture AND the enamel paint :O... I wouldn't feel the need to ever change either :D.
 
The CZ surplus SEEMS to be specifically made for this rifle, it sucks ass for accuracy in my SKS anyways, and shot quite well in my CZ-858, (getting my flame suit on) :D. I got some good groups with the CZ ball ammo, around 3" or so at 100 yards. I don't really care about the 'gremlin' issue as I am using it for target practice on my own at 100 yards or maybe 200 yards, and the steel plates and my shoot n see targets don't attack me visciously when I shoot at them, if you are going to get in a gunfight or use it in a 3 gun match - can't help you there. :D - don't bother buying the 5/10 round magazines as there does not seem to be a uniform standard as to how they are made, it's sort of like getting a grab bag, and one gets the impression that the 5/10 round magazines are made in the back shed by bubba, the 5/30 round magazines are good and reliable, I don't plan on getting $1000 worth of after market parts for my 858, but there are parts aplenty for them if you want to go that route, I think it's fine just the way it is, and it comes up to the shoulder so fast and it points naturally, I think it would make an excellent deer rifle. Best regards Tony. PS, sometimes you get one with the front sight assembly skewed to the side and you have to crank the windage drum all the way over to get it sighted in, don't stand for that, I had one like that and I exchanged it due to that issue. Above all have fun and be safe! :)

Edit: the CZ-858 is easier to clean than an SKS, just get a funnel and put some boiling water down the bore & splash some on the gas block area, and the corrosive problem is solved, but Canada ammo sells a solvent for this type of ammo. As compared to an SKS, I find I really can't use the CZ ball ammo in my Russian refurb SKS and expect to get any kind of useful accuracy out of it, 8-10" at 100 yards is what I am getting with my SKS benched :eek: I have to use Privi Partistan soft point ammo to get anything resembling acceptable accuracy at 100 yards, but the CZ loves the ball ammo, typically I have heard on average 3" X 5 shot groups with it at 100 yards. I am working on ways to squeeze more acceptable accuracy from my SKS but that is a work in progress, I have not gotten very far with it yet. the CZ is probably going to be 2 times as accurate as an SKS in good condition, that has not had anything done to it. But that's just my humble opinion. :wave:
 
CanuckShooter said:
1. I have read that the Gremlin is caused by either a problem with the striker or the carrier. Tabbed carriers seem to be on the way from a number of manufacturers. So my questions is... has it been established, unequivocally, that a tabbed carrier will COMPLETELY and without exception, eliminate the CZ Gremlin? This is the big CON for me, as I figure if I am paying almost $800 after taxes, how am I possibly getting a gun that could possibly not reset after every few rounds. But if I know that the tabbed carrier is absolutey fail-proof, working 100% of the time then I can live with that.

my rifle has never given me any problems in this respect. my wifes has and i tabbed the carrier all has been good since

2. How susceptible is a non-chrome lined bore to rust when shooting corrosive ammo? I have no experience doing so, and am still a bit unclear as to how thorough you must be (just the barrel... or action and gas system as well?), and just how soon after firing does the gun need to be cleaned. I think it is cool that Rauch Tactical is offering the finishing service, but for me it will add too much to the cost of the gun.

corrosion in bore from corosive primers is nil. i have left my 858 for about 7weeks without cleaning (after shooting several hundred rounds) and the only rust was an the gas piston return spring which wiped off and looked the same as it had before..

3. What is the typical accuracy one can expect from this rifle, using open sights with a front rest, shooting Czech surplus at 100yds? Is it significantly better than the accuracy using open sights, a rest and surplus ammo through an exc condition SKS? I have seen people say the CZ barely edges out the SKS in accuracy, and some say that the difference is night and day. I don't know what to believe really.

i find accuracy to be excellet for a rifle shooting 7.62x39. i am not much of a "range shooter" when it comes to rifles but whatever i aim at with it is doomed

4. Are there any other quirks that one should know about? Any weak points? For instance, I have read that the mags are made of thin aluminum and KevinB had hinted at them not being very tough. Another problem I came across was someone who overtightened the trigger guard screw and completely stripped/warped the hole which seems a bit odd. Any parts/mechanisms that are easily broken/fragile? The sticky hinted at the possibility that the locking plate might be fragile? Also, I see that the locking piece broke on a CGN'ers after a certain number of rounds. Is that common?

go buy one you will be extremly happy with the purchase...
Click to expand...

bro
 
1. Gremlin - We offer a service to tab your carrier for $35. Money well spent they say. I've not had a gremlin appear in my personal rifle.

2. corrosive ammo - People for some reason think that you need a chrome lined barrel in a military rifle.. not so. The non-chrome barrel is made to tighter specs because you're not cutting it under bore to allow for a plating that may be of any range of thickness. I have ~62,000 rnds through my non chrome barrel (I shoot a couple hundred rounds a day, nice having a personal range). Don't waste your money on windex, it's true that ammonia will neutralize the particular salts in surplus primers, but only Anhydrous Ammonia will.. And that's not found in windex. however the water they put in it will flush away the salts.. just as well as water will.. I do not clean my 58 any different than any other rifle. Oil, wipe, lube. Game on.

3. Accuracy - Surplus I average 2-2.5MOA. Factory hunting rounds ; 1.5MOA. Handloads I'm lucky to get much better on a good day. There's no advantage in reloading in terms of accuracy in this cartridge, only in purpose.

4. Quirks - this rifle will take anything you can give it.

I have a few $3500+ rifles in my rack... more often than not, it's the surplus 58 that goes out with me. Cheap ammo, dependable rifle, and fun to shoot.. you can't lose.
 
Is it Worth the Money.........

Ask yourself why are you spending $700.00 plus tax with maybe shipping charges. Is it because it looks like the AK47 that most people in Canada can't buy. Are you planning going to the range with a couple of battle packs of ammo and having some fun? If so go buy a SKS and do the same thing for a couple of hundred bucks and do the same thing. I have owned a 858-2 and could not for the life of me look at the rifle and say I paid that amount of money,Sold it. It did not have any problems and if it did why would you pay more money to have a new rifle fixed. It was a little more accurate than the SKS but minimal. Once again if you like the look than spend another couple hundred bucks on the SKS and make it look like you want it. It's your money, spend it how you like but in my opinion it's not worth it. Check out the link for a Tapco'd SKS.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=449693
 
I just picked up my 858 yesterday. I had an opportunity to try one side by side with an SKS and I'll tell you the 858 wins hands down. Lighter, easier to handle and better accuracy... Higher price, but worth the money I'd say!

My m14 is going up in the EE to pay for mods to my CZ...
 
Its a good rifle. I feel that it's worth the money I paid...every cent. I take mine everywhere....its well made, light, easy to carry in the bush, fits on the dash of your pickup for hunting. I have a case through mine with not a single malfunction right out of the box. Also new shooters tend really like it because it looks neat. I haven't run into anything equivalent on the market for any price. :)
 
I have not experienced any failures to fire from my 858. Down side for me was stock length and no mount for optics. Both are easy fixes with a few bucks down and after the extra funds have been spent it is still far less money than a AR which would be restricted. By the way neither of these problems were necessary to fix but made my gun into exactly what I had wanted.
 
I have both the restricted and non restricted CZ 858 and I think they are both very well made, dependable rifles. They are light,quick to acquire target and very easy to maintain. I personally don't worry about the issues surrounding the use of corrosive ammo. With surplus ammo in the 160 to 200 range for 1100 or so rounds,,,I will gladly use it. Neither of my CZs have had any probs with feed or ejection and have fired every time I've pulled the trigger and I have put at least 1000 rounds down the pipe of each of them. Personally I think any person interested in this type of firearm MUST own at least one,,,or two.
I also own an SKS, which is also a great rifle,,,,but quite a bit heavier,bulkier.
My 858s are by far the more accurate of the bunch,,out of the box with iron sights.
Dude just go buy it,,you know you want to!!!!!!

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1. Don't let the Gremlin dissuade you. I'm the dude posting "The Gremlin" vids and I love the rifle. I've never experienced it shooting and yes the tabbed carrier will solve it 100%.

2. Never experienced rust ever (or have concerns about it). I have an electric kettle and I douse the rifle (stripped) with boiling hot water after a session twice, then clean and oil.

3. I've owned the SKS and Mini-30... the CZ858 beats them both (at least for me) in terms of accuracy.

4. Barrel and receiver are new (858). In terms of other parts though, I can't say. My rifles have always looked like they came from new parts (not well worn parts).

5. The CZ858 is the best rifle going today for design and value.
If you are on a super budget you can go SKS, but the '58 is awesome and IMO the much better rifle (for the weight savings alone; you can one hand the 858!).

Again, calculate the cost of ammo vs .223 You can buy the CZ858 and go through a few thousand rounds and you'll be way ahead of the game if you went with any other cartridge.

I'm debating on whether or not to buy another one.
 
I didn't expect to get this much of a response :D. Thanks to everybody who has posted so far! After reading all of them my stance has changed quite a bit lol. I have eliminated, or am at least able to justify the following concerns:


1. Gremlin... Doesn't sound like that big a deal really, and if it DOES happen, $30 is quite cheap to permanently fix it.... especially considering I can ship JUST the carrier to Neit Arms or Rauch Tactical, and not the entire rifle.


2. Non-chrome lined bore... This doesn't seem nearly as bad as I anticipated or read. Some people on a few of the other forums were making it sound like if you didn't flush out the barrel within 0.001 milliseconds of the bullet leaving that it would rust severely. I think if Dave at Neit Arms can put 60,000+ rounds down his NCL barrel I should be fine.


3. Accuracy... 3"-4" groups at 100yds sounds great to me, considering that's what my dad and I were getting with his Norc M14 using surplus. Anything better would be icing on the cake.


4. Made from refurbished parts... this was on CZ's site

"The new Tactical and Military Sporter models are manufactured by combining original Sa vz. 58 components with a new semi-auto only milled receiver, a new trigger mechanism and new fire control parts."

I still don't know what to make of this. It's clear that some original parts were used to build the rifle... but whether they were brand new/unused parts or not is still unclear and I have had no luck searching the net so far. This is really the only real concern I have left, so if anyone who knows if the original FA parts are brand new/unused I would appreciate any info you can offer. But I mean, aside from the barrel, reciever, and furniture which are all new, it seems that aside from the trigger group, there would only be a few small parts that would be from the original FA guns... doesn't seem like that big a deal.


5. Quirks... none mentioned so far which sounds promising. More than likely the ones I read about were isolated cases which aren't too common.



I also have a few more quick questions :redface:...

- pizdets17 brought up resale value which is a good point. Say I buy it, and after a bit I decide it's not for me. Considering I am meticulous in caring for my guns, and would be leaving them 100% stock/unaltered...what would be reasonable to expect for resale value with a round count say under 500?

- fat tony mentioned getting one with the front sight skewed far to one side. Tony did you mean drifted to one side and wasn't sighted in properly? In which case all you need to do is bring it back near center and it was sighted? Or did you mean the entire front sight assembly was canted (rotated away from 12 o'clock) on the barrel? Has anyone recieved a rifle with the front sight canted like many/most Norinco M14s?


:eek: That's about all I can think of for now. It's looking good though. Like I said, this thread has put to rest the majority of concerns that were holding me back from buying one.

Thanks again!!
 
I have one as well. I may get another one in a month or so.

A very fun rifle. Non restricted, reliable and cheap to shoot. I also like the looks.

They handle well (better than a SKS), the trigger on them is decent and the rifle feels well built.

The cons:
-Reports of Gremlin (never had a problem, and $40 fix)
-Mounting optics is Mickey Mouse. Mine will remain iron sight firearms
-The barf board is a bit ugly, although it's grown on me, and the weight is excellent.
-The charging handle is on the right hand side. You can get slides with it on the left. I prefer on the left rather than doing the reach under ak style.
-I have a spot of paint that seems to be starting to peel on my barrel

It's a lot of fun at the range for plinking. I also think it would make an excellent deer rifle with hunting ammo, and especially in tree slash areas where you need less range and more quick handling.

That being said, you have to figure out what you want to do with it. $700 could buy you a Remington 700 SPS tactical as well, or a nice Ruger target model with decent optics.
 
This rifle is more accurate than any AK-47 I've shot because of the short piston stroke and the milled reciever. The stock is also more ergonomic to use. I love my SKS's for accuracy but they weigh several pounds more and you really notice it. This rifle is like having a Valmet at a bargain. The aluminum mags are ribbed and strong. Weak points: The pistol grip is too small and the sights suck. Both are easily and cheaply upgraded. Also, the bolt cocking lever is very close to the rear sights, which you can catch your hand on. This can be remedied with dual-sided cocking levers on a custom bolt carrier. Bonus: the aftermarket upgrades becoming available are far better than any AK can hope for. If these rifles had been available when the AK surge hit years ago in the US, they could have dominated the market. Now is the time to buy one or more, some extra mags and spare parts. Some AK enthusiasts have even sold their collections to focus on these rifles.They are that good.
 
My army days with Ak-74 and corrosive ammo, oil, wipe and oil again never any problems

CZ 858, main will group under 3 inches with Czechoslovak ammo at 100 meters

No rust problems in the berrel

First 20 rounds action was stiff did not close completly 2 times. After that few hundred rounds so far No Problems

I highly recomend this Rifle
 
I've only had mine out once since I bought it, but it was accompanied by an SKS so a chance to compare was there.. I was getting about 4" grouping at 100yards, but I was shooting fairly fast most of the time and I definaetly need a muzzle break for that. Whereas the SKS holds the target better after each shot. Probably due to the increased weight and length. I need to get out a couple more times to really feel the features that make it more desirable than an SKS. The lighter weight is an obvious one. But I know I could have bought 2 Sks's for the price.. :S

Like Murat, I had the slight malfunction where the action wouldn't completely close. It happened 2 or three times, but I'm considering it one of those breaking in something new deals.
 
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