Damascus barrels & modern loads

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gunsaholic

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I have seen a few listings lately where people are selling antique/vintage damascus barreled guns. They are described as suitable for modern loads. In my opinion, this is an inaccurate statement and possibly a dangerous one. These old guns were made for black powder and the pressures of the loads of the day. Some were made for smokeless loads but still the pressures were quite a bit lower back then. I have several damascus guns and I do shoot smokeless loads in them. But they are 2 1/2" shells made to pressures to what these guns could handle. Because a gun will go bang when the trigger is pulled, does not mean that off the shelf modern loads are okay to shoot in these guns and should not be advertised as such. One needs to understand these guns and because grandpa or uncle Joe got away with it so far does not make it safe. Buyer beware of such description in listings. These old guns can be a joy to carry and shoot but one needs to know the ins and outs of these old guns. So should the seller.
 
I fully support your comments.
Caution is always in order. We are only issued with 2 eyes and ten fingers. While catastrophic gun failure is not common, it is not unheard of. And not all failures are old Damascus guns either.
When selling old guns one should emphasise caution in selecting ammo.
We are not well supplied with low pressure cartridges in Canada, making most of us reload to low pressure standards.
 
gunsaholic said:
I have seen a few listings lately where people are selling antique/vintage damascus barreled guns. They are described as suitable for modern loads. In my opinion, this is an inaccurate statement and possibly a dangerous one. These old guns were made for black powder and the pressures of the loads of the day. Some were made for smokeless loads but still the pressures were quite a bit lower back then. I have several damascus guns and I do shoot smokeless loads in them. But they are 2 1/2" shells made to pressures to what these guns could handle. Because a gun will go bang when the trigger is pulled, does not mean that off the shelf modern loads are okay to shoot in these guns and should not be advertised as such. One needs to understand these guns and because grandpa or uncle Joe got away with it so far does not make it safe. Buyer beware of such description in listings. These old guns can be a joy to carry and shoot but one needs to know the ins and outs of these old guns. So should the seller.
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Well stated, very true.
 
I also totally agree with the first three posts. I shudder to see EE listings that advocate "current" or "modern" loads in shotguns over three quarters of a century old.
With more and more hunting loads designed for steel shot loads and pressure to cycle self loading guns, there are fewer and fewer loads commercially available in Canada that can be considered low pressure - this includes trap and skeet loads.

Bob
 
kamlooky said:
I've been curious about these old gals of days of yore also.
Would light trap loads still be too heavy a shell to use on these?
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Most of the off the shelf target loads are generating too much pressure. Aside from pressure, one also has to consider recoil when dealing with these old guns as pressure and recoil are two separate issues.
 
Damascus or fluid steel. Shoot an old gun....use lower pressure cartridges. Low pressure does not necessarily mean trap loads, light loads, 1 oz loads, low recoil loads or slow loads. It means low pressure. So educate yourself and keep your eyes and fingers.

That said, the vast majority of burst barrels, Damascus or fluid steel, can be traced to barrel obstruction. So in addition to knowing what you are feeding the old girl, check the barrels every time you load the gun.
 
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Everyone has their own opinion and this is mine:

Black powder is an explosive where Smokeless powder is a propellant creating different pressure curves. . Smokeless powder generates pressure progressively requiring the barrel to be stronger further up the barrel from the chamber. . Using smokeless powder in a barrel designed for black powder exerts higher pressure where your hand holds the forearm explaining why barrel failure may lead to finger loss. .

Some shotguns, late 1890's early 1900's, were proofed for smokeless powder and were used over the decades without failure. eg. Parker Bros, Remington. Yes these were strong guns, in their day, but Damascus barrels are made from a combination of different grades of steel welded together and now a 100 years later may have developed rust within the welds from corrosive primers of the day or other reasons and as such may need to be thoroughly checked by someone who knows what they're doing.

It's not just early Laminated or Damascus barrel shotguns that may fail when used with smokeless powder charges but some early steel barrels as well. . Some early steel barrels were made from a form of iron and some Damascus barrels were originally stronger. .

Anyways, my understanding is the pressure curve of smokeless powder require the barrel wall to be thicker or stronger further up the barrel from the chamber when compared to requirements for black powder. You only have one set of eyes and fingers so why not be careful and understand and respect the limitations of your shotgun.
 
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Sherman Bell, the gun researcher, did a series in Double Gun Journal several years ago where he tested several damascus barrels and if memory serves they could withstand pressures in the 28k-30k psi range before bursting.

As much as the idea of a fine English gun with damascus barrels appeals to me the only way I'd consider one is if it were nitro proofed, chamber length and wall thickness measured by a gunsmith I trusted and he deemed the gun suitable for use. I would do the same with a vintage fluid steel double barrel too. I've encountered too many doubles with lengthened chambers and reamed out bores to take anything to chance.
 
Remember too that old damascus can have corrosion within due to the method of manufacture. This could further weaken a smooth bore at specific locations making it even more susceptible to failure. Lots of black powder shooters out there. Get on forums and gather pertinent information. Good luck...
 
I seen it too,and shook my head as you all did ...nothing I can really add to the conversation,I wear myself out in the shop trying explaining these things to people when they come in with some old shotgun ,that's the best gun ever cause Pop never missed a rabbit or the old enfield that regularly shoots moose at 700 yards ,I just don't anymore .....some people just seem to be born with this innate knowledge - sort of a natural ability to know all sorts of things that will trump my education and experience every time ....I think the best one was (there's been so many )a new handloader whose recipe could take a caribou in the eye every time out to 500 yards with no hold over,oh and I had another 2 1/2 chambered(actual measure ) 12 gauge Lefever that was odd because it took a 3 inch mag in one side and only a 2 3/4 in the other ...for the life of me I couldn't understand how he shoved it in there it was quite tight but had been doing it for years ...the real issue was that the gun always doubled ,I couldn't duplicate the complaint till he showed me how he shot the gun ....two massive fingers in the trigger guard all the time -two triggers two fingers ! that gun was surprisingly tight after all this abuse ,stock was taped up though

My usual reply is "Cool ,what a dandy gun "....the hardest part is trying to hide the sarcasm
 
My daughter was doing her PAL RPAL recently.

I brought up mentioning the shotgun damascus etc issues to students during the usual discussion about steel shot and chokes when chatting with the instructor when I came to pick her up.

I have run into quite a few auctions where damacus and early shot guns are frequently for sale and I have seen a number bought by people who from listening to them did not seem to
have the knowledge about what they were buying not being a 'deal' on a handy truck gun etc.

My daughter instantly understood the issue when I explained it to her years ago from her experience with elmer fudd cartoons.......

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To be clear, being prudent with appropriate loads for old shotguns of good quality in good condition, does not mean that old guns are bombs just waiting to go off.
Old guns of poor quality and/or in poor condition might just be equivalent to bombs ready to go off, however.
These old quality guns are simply not "proven" to be safe with modern loads by a recognized proof house. Some old guns are reproofed and pass handily, but not all of them pass. Some fail dramatically at reproof.
If you are going to shoot old guns you should understand the proof standards of the day they were created, and exercise judgement about use of a gun a century old, or even older.
European and British proof have not been the same over time, though they have now tried to reconcile their proof differences under CIP standards, and the US does not have oversight of proof by manufacturers, though they have SAAMI as a standards organization.
Sometimes "Fools wade in where angels fear to tread."
 
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