DCRA Fullbore championship - F'ers, why didn't you go?

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prairieguy

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Turn out for this year's CFRC is low and the F class turnout is abysmal at 6 F Open and 14 F/TR

I know the DCRA is trying to increase F class attendance at future championships. There appears to be plenty of work to be done to make that happen. F class turnout has been really good at most of the Provincial championships and the regionals this year. There has to be a reason (or several) that is keeping all those people away from the CFRC.

Here's your chance to sound off about what kept you away and have your comments heard by the DCRA.

What would entice you to attend?
How would you do things differently if you had a chance to?
Would you attend if there was a shorter, separate F class Canadian championship?
 
Les, this subject has been beat to death on here ad nauseum but here are my reasoning's in no particular order.

1. Distance from where I live
2. Cost to attend
3. Time to travel there (sorry, not trusting my rigs and ammo to a courier or baggage handler) which encompasses #1 as well I suppose.
4. Just got back to work after a 2 week Holiday
5. Taking a week to go to Nokomis and AB

I am surprised that there were not more Eastern F-Class shooters in attendance as they managed to attract 30+ shooters to the Eastern F-Class Regionals.


I see you didn't go....listing your reasons as well? :)
 
Richard, I know the subject has been beaten to death on here but I intend to take the results of this less than scientific survey to the DCRA executive.

I (and a few others) have been asked to help them come up with a plan to increase f class attendance. I want to give them the whole picture without sugar coating it and see if I can leverage that into some real changes. I have similar reasons for not attending along with a couple of others. I'd just like to have some independent comments so it doesn't appear that I'm alone in my objections.

I cannot change the distance part of the equation however the other concerns may be something that can be addressed.

As far as shipping goes, stop using Canada Post.
 
The length of the match is a concern as well.....I only get so many paid holiday days per year and I have to allocate some to my significant other also.

The fact that I am getting a week (3 weeks after a 2 week holiday) to go do 2 shoots in 2 weekends is amazing in itself.
 
Long range shooting at paper targets is boring, I prefer events like the Quigley, shooting at long range gongs or silhouette...just my opinion.
 
I'm going to chime in here....

Same discussion is being bounced around the Service Rifle circles for NSCC hosted by the DCRA:

* Time off full time day jobs
* travel costs, courier costs
* Timing of the matches during the year (you cannot please everyone)
* May take too long, some folks can only shoot for 3 days at a stretch and have to return
* Few people can take over a week to shoot all those days, it's too much!

Anyways, those are the roadblocks from the shooters I rub elbows with in the Service Rifle circles.

Cheers,
Barney
 
My 2 cents worth.

1) matches must be held in condensed format. 3 days max for each shooting type.
2) Distance is an issue so why not Western and Eastern Championships alternating years
3) Making sure that the DCRA wants F Class shooting period as an important event
4) Promoting the Championships better
5) Changing the format of the team shooting to International standards to attract interest in team events.

Steve
 
The DCRA has been holding a Target Rifle shoot every year since around Confederation. it started with military person going there on paid duty to shoot. So there was no issue of "time off" "$", distance, etc.

It morphed into civilan TR shooting, and the TR shooters grew up in a culture where we all got together for a week in early August to shoot. Just like the TR shooters at Perry and Bisley do each year. in those families there is no discussion or debate about where someone will be for Shoot Week. We do it as part of a ritual. The wife and kids either come along and shoot too (as in my house) or stay home and sulk.

Now you have the TR shooters wondering why the F Class aren't doing the same things. becasue the FClass are starting from a different place. They have not had 4 generations* of family members taking off a week in August to go to Ottawa. They are actually asking "WhY?" And why would they? They never did it before.

If I was running the DCRA and if I wanted FClass to shoot, I would do much the same as they do for Black Powder. Make it a Long Week end at the beginning or maybe a 4 day weekend shoot, at the beginning. Those that want to stay on to shoot would be welcome.

*The 5th generation of my family is at the DCRA right now, although the 3rd generation (me) is not.
 
Ganderite said:
If I was running the DCRA and if I wanted FClass to shoot, I would do much the same as they do for Black Powder. Make it a Long Week end at the beginning or maybe a 4 day weekend shoot, at the beginning. Those that want to stay on to shoot would be welcome.[/QUOTE

"what he said" For me to go there and compete in anything meaningful it would be a week of shooting coupled with travel time, so may as well say 2 weeks away from work added to the overly steep entry fee's and travel costs
the other thing I find a little annoying is how they have a million ways of combining every yardage into a prize to the point that you can't really tell who's really winning the grand agg. must be a Tr thing? The DCRA has to realize that F-Class is not TR and does not have to be shot as per tradition of TR. For a match to be shot successfully in Ottawa it will have to be very similiar to our exsisiting Western's
Click to expand...
 
prairieguy said:
Turn out for this year's CFRC is low and the F class turnout is abysmal at 6 F Open and 14 F/TR

I know the DCRA is trying to increase F class attendance at future championships. There appears to be plenty of work to be done to make that happen. F class turnout has been really good at most of the Provincial championships and the regionals this year. There has to be a reason (or several) that is keeping all those people away from the CFRC.

Here's your chance to sound off about what kept you away and have your comments heard by the DCRA.

What would entice you to attend?
How would you do things differently if you had a chance to?
Would you attend if there was a shorter, separate F class Canadian championship?
Click to expand...

A 7-9 day marathon is not for me anymore. Back and forth from 3 -5 -6 and 9 hundred metres is boring and physically taxing, specially with F(O) equipment. It is not an F-class match it is a TR match with F-class participants. One or 2 days of inclement weather are virtually guaranteed and I don't need to shoot in the rain. This is not my idea of fun. Enough shooting to finish burning out a barrel with the high intensity F(O) stuff.

If they had a 3 day match specifically for Fclass, 4 matches /day at 900m 15 shots/match, morning blowoffs each day, I would attend. About 200 rounds in total, like the Eastern Regionals. No need to move all around the range, equipment stays a 900m All competitors on same relay, resquadded each day according to scores. And only 2 to a target. These new ICFRA targets were meant to be string shot, not marathon "every shot a sighter" events with 3 to a target.


NormB
 
I was there opening weekend I shot both the long range challenge and the Gooderham I try to attend at least a portion of the DCRA’s every year.

I understand the distance thing we are a flippen big country so if you were to drive it could take up to 2 days travel one way.

Vacation schedule if you only have 2 weeks a year for vacation using one full week for shooting would use up half of your vacation time, another week for kids and or wives isn’t enough time. If you have 4 or more weeks a year then the schedule is certainly doable

I also understand not wanting to send guns and gear ahead of time. But 1,000’s of people do it every year, look at the world benchrest Vera Carter just won the light gun class in France and there is no way she drove there. Maybe the DCRA could inform shooters of courier options on how to get guns and gear safely sent to Ottawa. It would be really disheartening to send a rifle only to find the stock broken or the scope dangling from the receiver. Being informed on shipping could reduce the apprehension of sending gear to events

Cost sorry I call BS on this one.. the entire weeks events run $900 give or take a few non-essential matches for the entrance fees but room and board is far cheaper than either western or eastern regional events ($10 a day for boarding and another $20-30 for food each day). How much did you pay for lodging and food at this years, Western or Eastern regionals.
$900 for a lump sum is hard to swallow all at once. I can do $200 and then add on as I go. But using Christmas as an example if you were going to tell me I need to spend $1,500 I would be less likely to do it. But everyone knows that a few dollars here a few dollars there is not as hard to take until you see your visa bill.

Here’s one people are intimidated to attend. Those that have rarely shot competitive matches would be less likely to go to a weeklong National/international event then those individuals who have shot provincial and regional matches and want to test themselves on a larger stage.

I personally find the events a little confusing which one do I need to compete in the grand agg which ones are fun matches. What is the absolute minimum number of events I can participate in to be eligible to win the overall title.

I am not a fan of having events over long weekends as long weekends typically are already scheduled for family events.

My idea of an F class event would be 4 days one more then the regionals to test my skill set over a longer period of time(it also allows individuals to claw back if they have one brutal day) distances would be no closer than 600yards out to 1,000 there are too many matches at nationals that are set at 300yards. There would be either a 300 yard fun/sighting shoot or (a preferred) unlimited sighters at 600 and distances in between out to 1,000 for the first events so those people from different parts of the country could get their zeros. After that the typical 2 sighters and 15 for score would apply. no 7 or 10 shot matches

edit Norm B makes a good point i also want only 2 to a mound three people make for a long session and wind changes can dictate those people with 2 to a mound may not get caught the same way as those with three. I would prefer a single shooter with a scorer in that case.
 
Trevor60 said:
Cost sorry I call BS on this one.. the entire weeks events run $900 give or take a few non-essential matches for the entrance fees but room and board is far cheaper than either western or eastern regional events ($10 a day for boarding and another $20-30 for food each day). How much did you pay for lodging and food at this years, Western or Eastern regionals.
Click to expand...

Let's see.....Vokes Range in Chilliwack, 4 days of shooting at BC Provincials (granted only 300-600M) $200 - Very Reasonable Price

Douglas Ridge Oregon (Weekend Following BC Provs) - 3 Days Shooting plus 1 sight in day at 800, 900 and 1000yds - $170

Chilliwack and Douglas Ridge combined - 8 Days of shooting at a cost of $370 for match fees. Camping on site at both events and shower facilities at DR. Can do this with Minimal days off work (5 days of holidays, 4 if you can drive home the same day the match ends which is a 10hr drive for me)

Western Regionals - 3 Days at 800 and 900m - $300 (A tad on the steep side for me but it did include Shirts and a BBQ)


Lodging at the Western Regionals cost me exactly $0.00 and Food cost me grocery store prices for supplies. I am lucky that AB is close enough to warrant taking my Travel Trailer, even without dragging the trailer I can camp in Chez Chevy for a 2 or 3 day Match.


I do agree that the cost of lodging at Ottawa (and food if you want to eat on site) is far better than you will get anywhere else if you are not camping on site.

The 2 to a mound is also preferred. I liked how they did it at the US Nationals last year, you had a combined time and lay down 2 to a target but shooter 1 string shot while shooter 2 scored, then shooter 2 shot and shooter 1 scored.
 
The lenght of the match is the main reason I did not attend. I only have a limited amount of vacation time and 7-9 days plus 2 more days travel time is difficult to make happen. I will do it at least once in my lifetime, but unfortunately, it wont be an annual event for me.

A more condensed schedue 3-4 days of shooting would be more manageable for me. I realy enjoyed the format of the Easter Canadian Championships this July. I intend to make the Eastern Canadian Championships part of my yearly shooting schedule.
 
I am not a diehard f-class shooter, though I do make a couple matches, and compete in positional Service Rifle at least once a month.

As others hinted at, one of the factors that burns all shooting sports is simple apathy. There are real world class facilities in many provinces, with high quality matches held at them most months. Many of these clubs have members with real skill in their domain, and members that would bend over backwards to help out a new guy(I've been on both ends of that train.).

Yet getting one person to attend usually takes 10 that "want" to.

I wouldn't at all be concerned about turn out. Put on the best match you can. Invite everyone you can, and solicit and act on actionable feedback.

Then get out there, and enjoy the hell out of the matches. If the others want to wear out their barrels cleaning them, so be it. I'd prefer they were burnt out as well though.

Feedback about F-class being boring because it uses paper targets is about as actionable about complaints that a service rifle match makes you shoot from practical positions though.
 
Could be entirely my fault, i may have seen something shiney and was looking the wrong direction, but where did they promote it?

I don't recall seeing anything about it. Which is too bad because I have friends in ott I could justify a visit with/temporarily move in with (which is my plan should the eastern & western fclass champs fall on separate weekends).

But I literally dont know enough about it to offer feedback.
 
SteveB said:
3) Making sure that the DCRA wants F Class shooting period as an important event
Click to expand...

The DCRA absolutely wants F-Class shooting. The reason Les has started this thread is that everybody realizes that for whatever reasons our national matches are not attracting enough F-Class shooters and this needs to be changed.

Thanks to everybody who has commented in this thread so far. And anybody who has not yet commented please do speak up (or PM Les if you're too shy to speak publicly).

As you can see many of the problems don't have simple answers. Some say that 7-9 days of shooting is needed in order to justify traveling in from BC AB etc and that if the matches were cut to 4 days then the matches would not be worth attending; others say that they don't attend because the matches are too long but at 3 or 4 days they would attend.

The shooting programme can be changed, in fact it is quite likely to be changed as a result of ideas coming out of this thread and others. The DCRA will offer a national championship F-Class match that F-Class shooters want to shoot - please help us figure out what that is.

Please also don't forget team shooting. Does it belong as part of the national championship? If so, should it be in the middle of the individual events, should it precede them or should it follow them? (@SteveB in particular I'd really appreciate if you could expand on your comments - as far as I know our team matches are done in the standard international manner)

This year during the first two "warmup" days of the match, the Canadian WLRC team conducted a team training session in preparation for the team (TR) that is going to Brisbane in October. It worked really well and was superior in many ways to firing individual practice matches. This is or something like it could probably be made as a useful and attractive add-on for F-Class shooters too. I know that later in the week the Canadian 2013 F Class training team will be conducting team practice and training during the three half-days of team shooting on the schedule (today Thursday-PM; Friday-PM; Saturday-AM).

Those who have said that the national match needs to be better promoted and more visible - these are good comments but if you have any suggestions are to where/how that would be most helpful.

Regarding 3 to a target shooting, the shooting at the Canadian Championships is conducted with two shooters to a target. When an odd number of shooters shows up for a relay the problem then becomes, do you have one shooter fire as a "single" (which is typically a competitive advantage for that one shooter especially in F Class and especially at long range)? Or do you put that single into an existing pair to form a threesome? (for one match only, the Long Range Challenge, we do that in order to avoid the "single shooter" problem; for all the other matches we don't assign three to a target).

@CyaN1de thanks for the description of how the US does sequential string firing. If that is what our F-Class shooters want, we can do that at the Canadian Championships.

@shockman there are a zillion different aggs and prizes to be sure. There is only one Grand Agg though and that is the most meaningful thing to win. Here is where is stood as of last night GRAND AGGR.TO WEDNESDAY 19:00. Later today you can check GRAND AGGR.TO THURSDAY 19:00.. Once firing is completed (noon Friday) the final results will be at MACDONALD STEWART GRAND AGGR.

A few years ago I wrote a blurb for new shooters to the Canadian Championships. It might be a bit dated but if you've never fired the national matches in Ottawa before it might give you a bit of a flavour:

http://dcraprogramme.########.com/2009/03/new-shooter-to-2009-canadian.html
 
To me, the real issue with Ottawa (and as Dan knows, I've bin der, done dat) is where it is located, nationally. Like others have said, it takes you 2 wks holidays to shoot it and drive down and back. Move that range used for the CFRC east of Winnipeg (to the soon to be new St Charles range) which is in the geographical center of Canada, and your FClass numbers will triple and I would bet your TR numbers would also increase.

Format you ask for FClass type Champinship match, the Western Regionals have been a great success now for a couple of years and us FClassers seen to like it. 800, 900 and 1000 (2+15's) and another 1000 for team shooting for the first two days and two 1000 yd finals (seeded) the last day. The team shooting would NOT count to the main agg as not everyone would shot it. These final 1000 yd team shoots were regular matches and counted into the main agg in the Western in 2010 and 2011, but for 2012 (Nokomis) these will be team matches outside the main agg. (Trying to help the 2013 teams prepare for the worlds in Raton)

Costs you ask, again, the Western's are $100 per day (as is most US major events per day) and run you $300 to $350 for all 3 days including the supper and shirts.

HOF points you ask.... well from what I see, the Regionals should have more weight assigned to them than even the CFRC just since the number of shooters are more than double what we get at the CFRC.

Yes, the CFRC is a great match, well run, great target pullers, cheap accommodations and meals, friendly staff and all, BUT it is just too far east for myself and 2 wks holidays is out of the question again.

One big question I have to ask, there are a lot of eastern shooters that do not go to the CFRC and they live right there. Why don't they go??? Those are the ones you have to ask why they do not come out. If you can not attact the ones close by, do not cry if those thousands of miles away do not come too.
 
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I`m a newcomer to this game .
But I can swing the friday off for provincials . But a week of precious holidays is out of the question . I`m not retired .
If the F class had a class system then the less experienced would not feel like they are subsidizing the pot .
 
I had a wonderful time at the Eastern Regionals this year, and will return.
Three full days of shooting. Ten matches total at 700, 800, 900m.
Great bunch of shooters.
Under $400. (Match fee, lodging, food.) (Crazyhorse not included, but worth every penny.)
Great sponsorship, and prizes.
What's not to like?
I wish I could get my family to come to the range for up to 10 days for the nationals, but it's not going to happen any time soon, and yes the expense is an issue also.
 
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