Derya MK 12 Legal Status?

[G0DFATHER]

I like to think I understand the situation/risks but just want to confirm to make sure I'm not missing anything. A bit of duplicate post of what was started here...

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/2031128-Derya-MK12-now-prohibited-according-to-FRT-update?highlight=derya

So in summary... Derya MK 12:

-According to criminal code/firearms act - non-restricted

-According to OIC - unaffected

-According to FRT update shortly after OIC - prohibited though not legally binding, take your chances kind of thing


It's actually this middle one with the OIC specifically that I wanted clarification on. In the written notice firearms owners received about all of the bans it wasn't on the list, and the resources I see online also don't list it.
https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/firearms/need-know-the-government-canadas-prohibition-certain-firearms-and-devices

I just want to make sure I'm not missing some kind of critical secondary announcement, or official OIC part II that is legally binding. If anyone can confirm my understanding that would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Sqr]

Prohibited Affect by the ban.

https://www.armalytics.ca/?q=MK12&s...0][values][0]=2022-08-29&filters[0][type]=all

 

[Suther]

There was no OIC part 2, or secondary list, or anything like that. The Lab decided to edit the FRTs for a bunch of guns after the OIC got released, deeming them AR variants despite not being listed in the OIC.

However! The OiC states the following:

87 The firearms of the designs commonly known as the M16, AR-10 and AR-15 rifles and the M4 carbine, and any variants or modified versions of them — other than one referred to in item 47, 49 or 50 of this Part — including the

By using the word "including..." it means the list is not exhaustive, thus the gun doesn't necessarily have to be on that list to be prohibited by the OiC.


Long story short, nobody can really say with 100% certainty whether the Derya mk12 is legitimately a prohib or not - the FRT is just an opinion, it is not legally binding, so its possible that all the guns they changed to being AR Variants after the fact were incorrectly reclassified in the FRT and thus are still perfectly legal... But I'm not about to be the test case for it...

 

[Jay]

I checked the OIC, the Derya MK12 is not listed.

The way Armalytics tags things is described below & one needs to look at the OIC to see if a firearm is listed & if it is not, but still 'affected by ban' according to Armalytics, that then tells you the RCMP changed it's classification in the FRT system after the OIC...

"Firearms tagged with "Affected by Ban" have at least one or more configurations explicitly prohibited or interpreted by the RCMP to be prohibited under the May 1st, 2020 Order In Council.

Please go to a firearm's Calibre, Shots, & Barrel Length table to see detailed information on which configurations are prohibited and which ones are not.

The "Legal Authority" in the afformentioned table gives you the legislation or regulation being used to justify the corresponding configuration's legal classification.

For the official list of banned firearm models/variants/platforms please see the May 1, 2020 edition of the Canada Gazette."

https://canadagazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2020/2020-05-01-x3/pdf/g2-154x3.pdf

 

[Sqr]

Guys check the Armalytics site and download the latest FRT for the MK12 and it is prohibited and the MK10 is non-restricted. Take it out at your peril.

 

[Suther]

Guys check the Armalytics site and download the latest FRT for the MK12 and it is prohibited and the MK10 is non-restricted. Take it out at your peril.

But the FRT is not the law.

These guns were legally sold as being Not a variant of the AR15 for some time prior to May 2020; only after the OIC dropped did the RCMP change their interpretation and decide that these were in fact AR15 variants.

So that begs the question is it a variant or no? Was the RCMP wrong originally when they classified them as Not ARs, or are they wrong now when they reclassified them as variants? Nobody knows, and nobody will know without someone getting charged and going to trial over it.

 

[Jay]

Guys check the Armalytics site and download the latest FRT for the MK12 and it is prohibited and the MK10 is non-restricted. Take it out at your peril.

Agreed, but... The Derya MK12 had it's FRT changed afterwards by the RCMP as it is not listed in the OIC...

The FRT is not law, the OIC is (as much as we don't like it)...

 

[Scotty454]

Guys check the Armalytics site and download the latest FRT for the MK12 and it is prohibited and the MK10 is non-restricted. Take it out at your peril.

The question being asked requires a more in-depth approach than you're taking. This issue is not black and white as you're making it appear.

 

[Suther]

Agreed, but... The Derya MK12 had it's FRT changed afterwards by the RCMP as it is not listed in the OIC...

The FRT is not law, the OIC is (as much as we don't like it)...

The OIC isn't an exhaustive list either though. When listing models it states "Including the...." which would mean that the list is not necessarily a complete list of guns. Certainly if its on that list we know its prohib, but its absence from that list does not mean it is not also prohibited.

The question being asked requires a more in-depth approach than you're taking. This issue is not black and white as you're making it appear.

The simple answer for all of the guns that had their FRT changed after the OIC and were not specifically listed in the OIC is "Nobody knows". The RCMP is certainly trying to tell us they are prohibited, but thats only their opinion - an opinion they changed after the OIC was released which really makes you wonder how much value their opinion has...

ATRS has a lawsuit ongoing with regards to the changing of the FRT on the Modern Sporter/Hunter after the fact don't they? I guess when that finally goes to trial we might get a judges ruling on whether the RCMP are allowed to reclassify stuff as AR variants years after the product was on the market?