Deteriorated Powder.

[Eagleye]

So I had an interesting find in my powder stash a couple of days ago. I was digging around to check and see
what all I had. Lo and behold, way back in the corner of one storage container, is an Higginson's Cardboard box
marked CF7900. It was an Expro powder that was virtually identical to IMR 4831. I bought 21 lbs of it when
Thomas was still alive.

When I went to lift the box out of the storage bin, it basically disintegrated in my hand....a bad sign, BTW, it
indicates gassing from decaying powder....the gas is acidic in nature. I lifted the bag out of what was left of
the box, and it had about 2 lbs of powder in it, but it was in a solid, square mass, no loose kernels at all. It was
like someone had poured glue into it, except it was dry.

I took it out to my fire pit, and surrounded it with loose smokeless powder from bullets I had pulled from unknown
ammo. I lit the loose powder. It burned vigorously all around the solid powder, which refused to burn at all

I built a wood fire in the pit, and put the block of powder on it. It did burn, but more like another piece of wood
than like gunpowder. Interesting, indeed. Check your stores guys, this stuff can go south. In my several decades of
reloading, I have had these go bad: OEM4350 [N160] VV N150, IMR 4831, IMR 3031, CF7900, Ammomart #44, IMR
4064 and old H570. Dave.

 

[bertn]

Interesting.
Sorry to hear with the current high prices

What is the reason it went bad you think? Container/box not being air tight enough?
I have some pretty old imr 4756 and 4895 in metal cans that is still in perfect shape.

 

[Andy]

In contrast, I still have thousands of rounds of Swedish 8X63 from 80 years ago for pull-down, and when pulled, I have yet to find any powder that has deteriorated. The powder in those rounds is sealed from oxygen and moisture, which seem to be the most common cuprits.

 

[Dogleg]

I've only had powder go bad twice; but oddly in both instances it was IMR 3031.

 

[veeshooter]

In contrast, I still have thousands of rounds of Swedish 8X63 from 80 years ago for pull-down, and when pulled, I have yet to find any powder that has deteriorated. The powder in those rounds is sealed from oxygen and moisture, which seem to be the most common cuprits.

I have a bunch of that powder that I inherited. Can you tell me which modern powder it is equivalent to so i can track some load data? Cheers

 

[bearhunter]

In contrast, I still have thousands of rounds of Swedish 8X63 from 80 years ago for pull-down, and when pulled, I have yet to find any powder that has deteriorated. The powder in those rounds is sealed from oxygen and moisture, which seem to be the most common cuprits.

I had several crates of that stuff and there were two different powders used between the lots.

One was extruded and looked like IMR3031 and the other had granules that were much smaller but filled about the same volume in the case with a larger charge.

The extruded stuff was all good and I shot a lot of it, but the small granule stuff was deteriorated in some cases.

Of course it was impossible to tell, until the bullets were pulled or you tried to shoot them.

The first indication I had of bad powder was extremely inconsistent accuracy from a rifle that was built for the round.

I sold all of that stuff off to a fellow, but indicated up front that there were two crates that were marked with large RED stickers, to indicate they were not reliable.

 

[bearhunter]

I have a bunch of that powder that I inherited. Can you tell me which modern powder it is equivalent to so i can track some load data? Cheers

It's very close to IMR3031 but with powder that old, you can guarantee it will be different from recent manufacture.

If you have enough components on hand, starting loads are the place to begin your load work up.

I sincerely doubt there is anyone left alive that can give first hand info on that powder, which is likely a Bofors type, similar to the #44 powder that Higginson's used to sell.

 

[smokinbarrel]

I've only had powder go bad twice; but oddly in both instances it was IMR 3031.

I have had the exact same experience...must be something different about 3031

 

[Cocked&Locked]

Interesting.
Sorry to hear with the current high prices

What is the reason it went bad you think? Container/box not being air tight enough?
I have some pretty old imr 4756 and 4895 in metal cans that is still in perfect shape.

The number one factor that controls powder life is keeping it cool or cold. Don't store it in summer heat. A dry, cool basement or some place air conditioned in summer is necessary for longest life.
You want low humidity, dark, and cool!

 

[Eagleye]

This powder has always been stored properly by me. However, I have no idea
how it was stored prior to my acquisition.

The loss is minor....I have enough powder to satisfy my needs for the foreseeable
future, lol.

Cool, dark and low humidity....exactly.
I have other powders that are older than this CF7900, that are still just like
new, and perform very well. [RP-5, IMR5010, N203 & 204, etc] Dave.

 

[bearhunter]

The number one factor that controls powder life is keeping it cool or cold. Don't store it in summer heat. A dry, cool basement or some place air conditioned in summer is necessary for longest life.
You want low humidity, dark, and cool!

When you're purchasing powder, you have no idea how that powder was stored before you got it.

It only takes a few days of extremes to cause a powder to start deteriorating.

Powder can deteriorate in all sorts of ways.

Vibration can be a real killer, as it causes the coatings to rub off as the grains rub against each other in the container. Not so bad in bulk containers.

Heat can be a killer, but I've got powder that was stored in Equatorial climates, in steel sheds, where the heat was easily at 40+C and it's still fine 30+ years later. Even in Brazil, where the humidity was often in the 80% range as well.

Ganderite could give us a lot of insight on this issue.

IMHO, sloppy manufacturing practices, especially those enabled by stressfull conditions are the root cause of powder deterioration.

This can happen with any manufacturer, stressfull conditions or not. Sloppy employee practices by whomever is supplying the basic materials combined into the mix that becomes powder can also be a major factor.

People are not perfect and try as hard as they might, mistakes do happen.

 

[MiG25]

Isn't making flake or extruded powder a 6 month process and rushing it will leave it unstable?

 

[B]

Powder begins to deteriorate as soon as it is made. It's only through stabilizers and proper storage that it lasts as long as it can.

 

[veeshooter]

It's very close to IMR3031 but with powder that old, you can guarantee it will be different from recent manufacture.

If you have enough components on hand, starting loads are the place to begin your load work up.

I sincerely doubt there is anyone left alive that can give first hand info on that powder, which is likely a Bofors type, similar to the #44 powder that Higginson's used to sell.

Thanks for this info! I will have a look. What I have is definitely extruded. It almost looks like tiny squares.

 

[mbogo3]

I had an old 8lb can of IMR 17 1/2 which was the predecessor of IMR 3031 that was as described by the OP. The smell was so overpowering you couldn't breathe.

 

[Gunsmoke]

IMHO, I would not trust plastic bags and cardboard as a container for long term storage. Ok for shipping. As Eagleye described in his original post, I experienced the same last year helping a friend clean up their late father’s reloading collection, a disintegrating cardboard box with a sweating plastic bag and wet broken down powder.

 

[bearhunter]

Thanks for this info! I will have a look. What I have is definitely extruded. It almost looks like tiny squares.

That stuff is the least common and it still has a burn rate similar by weitht/volume to 3031

3031 didn't oringinally have an IMR prefix. That came later, after the generic version was commercialized.

 

[bearhunter]

IMHO, I would not trust plastic bags and cardboard as a container for long term storage. Ok for shipping. As Eagleye described in his original post, I experienced the same last year helping a friend clean up their late father’s reloading collection, a disintegrating cardboard box with a sweating plastic bag and wet broken down powder.

What have you got for proof of that theory?? A couple of one off incedents???

I still have a pressed cardboard container marked 4831, with a 1942 date, with a tarred interior and plastic bag type liner, which contains about 10kg of the original 50 pounds of powder that was packed into it 70 years ago and it's just as good today as it was when I bought it and opened it over 50 years ago.

I just make sure the lid is put back properly every time it's opened and it isn't subjected to high humidity.

None of the powders on the shelf today are expected or guaranteed to be around five years from the date of manufacture.

Anything beyond that is a bonus IMHO

We're just spoiled by the extremely high standards the industry in general has placed upon itself.

 

[Longwalker]

I've had some powder that was perfect after more than 30 or 40 years of storage. And some that was probably around 10 years old that deteriorated. All powder that I've had go bad were bought "used' from someone, not new retail stocks. So who knows how it was stored. I've thrown out some Ammomart #44, IMR4198, VVN140, and Hercules Bullseye. So no manufacturer seems particularly risky, they can all go bad.

 

[Ganderite]

I had several batches of Ammomart #44 go bad. It was so acidic that it ate a hole in my steel shelf and ate a hole on my jeans where some of it splashed in the clean up.

The smell is so over-powering that there is no doubt that there is a problem.