Differences between Webley MK III, MK II and MK I

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swampdog

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Please help educate me about the differences between the MK I, I*, II, and III revolvers.

Also, did they become progressively stronger and better built?

I'm also wondering about the relative value, given similar condition, of these different MK models, assuming that we are talking about all antique status guns (very early MK III also qualifies for antique status). In other words, is a MK I more valuable than a MK II or MK III, or is it the other way around?
 
Thanks for the links; they provide some basic information.

I'm still wondering, when it comes down to the situation in Canada, whether there is much difference in the desirability of the different MK models. Is one more or less desirable than the others?

Also, does the MK III make a better shooter than the earlier ones? It has a revised locking mechanism, but is it stronger?

Any other comments appreciated.
 
mki and mkii no diffrence aside from that mki is more shootable with the humped gripped. The heavier mkI * and mkII hammer is 'nicer'.

Given a choice between the 2 choose based on condition.
 
I agree with DD. As far as making good safe shooters there is no great difference between MKI/II/III. The MKI grip fits my hand better than later models.

The MK1* is a MKI upgraded to use the MKII blast shield. The MK1* does not have upgraded cylinder or barrel and is not actually much of an improvement strength-wise.

The MKI** is a MKI that has been retrofitted with (IIRC) a MKIV cylinder and barrel. This is a very useful upgrade and the MKI** is (at least theoretically) able handle heavier loads than a regular MKI (or MKII or MKIII for that matter).

The MKII is a slightly reworked version of the MKI. Most parts are interchangeable with the MKI but the grips have changed and the hump is gone from the backstrap.

The antique MKIII is more desireable from a collector viewpoint simply because there were only about 1500 of them made early enough to qualify for antique status in Canada.

The MKIII cylinder locking system is improved from the MKI/II version, however the cylinder retaining mechanism on the MKIII is a complicated lever arrangement that has markedly more endplay than the earlier models, so the improvement in rotaional lockup at battery is moot. The MKI/II revolvers have a single retaining screw that is a simpler more robust system, and I prefer that mechanism over the MKIII version. But they all work.
 
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I have and like the MKI** thats a regular mKI thats been upgraded in 1914 to MKV standards they install a MKV Cylinder which is thicker walled and much stronger.
The frame being pre 1898 they retain there antique status even with that upgrade....
they have some Case hardened parts and the the MV Barrel is also installed.
Some have the removeable recoil sheilds installed some dont if there fireing pin hole are is in good shape they dont install the sheild.
Mine dont have the removable sheild.
Mine is in 45 ACP its handled all the factory ammo ive shot thru it with no signs of stress or looseness.
They replace the top latch screw to with MKV latch screws which dont bend as easy as the MKI screws.
There are MKII**s as well but i like the MKI ** the best of all my british guns. :)

I dont like MKIIIs ive had a few and tho there OK theres nothing gained by all the extra cylinder retainer claws and stuff.
You cant go wrong with just a regular mKI or MKII.
There is Way less Webleys comeing up for sale in the USA in the last year compared to the past years so there going to get harder to buy down the road.
There not makeing anymore of them and the higher recent prices on the USA auctions have made alot of guys down there dig deep to find and sell them.
 
david doyle said:
Dingus, big agreement here,IMHO MKI** in .45acp is just about the most desirable antique out there.
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Near the top of the list, at least. But for me the most desireable webley is the big WG .476 enfield. Every webley chambered for the .476 will chamber unaltered .45 S&W Schofield brass. That big case can propel bullets at .45acp velocity using 50% less pressure than full power .45acp cartridges. The best of both worlds.

I have a .457" hollow base boolit mould on order. It should be the cat's meow for the .476 enfield chambered webleys.
 
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jethunter said:
Near the top of the list, at least. But for me the most desireable webley is the big WG .476 enfield. Every webley chambered for the .476 will chamber unaltered .45 S&W Schofield brass. That big case can propel bullets at .45acp velocity using 50% less pressure than full power .45acp cartridges. The best of both worlds.

I have a .457" hollow base boolit mould on order. It should be the cat's meow for the .476 enfield chambered webleys.
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Not "every" WG will chamber and cycle 45 schofield brass as 45 schofield rim is as thick as 45 colt rim.
Some do cycle in the guns some need to have the rims thined to 455 thickness.
You just musta been lucky in the WGs you bought being able to cycle that 45 Sch ammo ive had a half a dozen orignal WGs that were tight and not altered that would not cycle the thicker rimed 45 Sch cases they chamber yes but not much good if they dont cycle.
Alot of WGs that do cycle the thicker rimed ammos have had the recoil sheild area filled down to alow the thicker rims to cycle.
Some just do cycle the ammo not altered so its very confuseing to some.

The Big Negitive for me with .476 cal WGs is there bores are like .460 so speical bullets are needed to get decent accuracy from them chamber throats can be .460 to.
The best WGs are the 455 caliber ones haveing tighter bores and tighter chamber throats.

The regular Webley MKI**s and just MKIs for that mater have the .451 or so bores and chamber throats so are easyer to get bullets for that shoot decent.

I have some HB .458 bullets that weigh in at about 260 Grs that are great in .476WGs but there by no meens a common bullet.
 
dingus said:
Not "every" WG will chamber and cycle 45 schofield brass as 45 schofield rim is as thick as 45 colt rim.
Some do cycle in the guns some need to have the rims thined to 455 thickness.
You just musta been lucky in the WGs you bought being able to cycle that 45 Sch ammo ive had a half a dozen orignal WGs that were tight and not altered that would not cycle the thicker rimed 45 Sch cases they chamber yes but not much good if they dont cycle.
Alot of WGs that do cycle the thicker rimed ammos have had the recoil sheild area filled down to alow the thicker rims to cycle.
Some just do cycle the ammo not altered so its very confuseing to some.

The Big Negitive for me with .476 cal WGs is there bores are like .460 so speical bullets are needed to get decent accuracy from them chamber throats can be .460 to.
The best WGs are the 455 caliber ones haveing tighter bores and tighter chamber throats.

The regular Webley MKI**s and just MKIs for that mater have the .451 or so bores and chamber throats so are easyer to get bullets for that shoot decent.

I have some HB .458 bullets that weigh in at about 260 Grs that are great in .476WGs but there by no meens a common bullet.
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My misrtake - i meant to say "every .476 webley I have encountered". because there are so darn many variations found wihtin webley revolvers that I sure wouldn't expect "every' revolver to be built to exact same specs. No doubt there were a lot of variations and webley is well known for that. I've been lucky. The 1/2 dozen or so .476 enfield chambered RIC and WG Webleys I've had a chance to play with have all accepted unaltered .45 S&W Schofield brass perfectly and they were not shaved on the cylinder or the recoil shield. But even if the rim needs to be thinned, the longer cases are worth the effort in .476 chambered revolvers. IIRC you even had some advertised at one time that accepted the unaltered .45 colt cartridge. Yes there were a lot of variations right from the factory.

I have seen one worn WG barrel that slugged out at .459" but the rest were .456-457. Throats were .457-.458. I've had good luck with flat base .455" soft cast bullets and stout loads of unique in most .476 chambered pistols with only one that refuses to shoot flat base bullets well.

I've got a .457" HB bullet mold orgered just for the .476 enfield chambered pistols. It should be a dandy. Personally I don't care for the .455 chambered WG pistols as much as the .476 chambered ones. I really like that cartridge in the big WG revolver.
 
jethunter said:
My misrtake - i meant to say "every .476 webley I have encountered". because there are so darn many variations found wihtin webley revolvers that I sure wouldn't expect "every' revolver to be built to exact same specs. No doubt there were a lot of variations and webley is well known for that. I've been lucky. The 1/2 dozen or so .476 enfield chambered RIC and WG Webleys I've had a chance to play with have all accepted unaltered .45 S&W Schofield brass perfectly and they were not shaved on the cylinder or the recoil shield. But even if the rim needs to be thinned, the longer cases are worth the effort in .476 chambered revolvers. IIRC you even had some advertised at one time that accepted the unaltered .45 colt cartridge. Yes there were a lot of variations right from the factory.

I have seen one worn WG barrel that slugged out at .459" but the rest were .456-457. Throats were .457-.458. I've had good luck with flat base .455" soft cast bullets and stout loads of unique in most .476 chambered pistols with only one that refuses to shoot flat base bullets well.

I've got a .457" HB bullet mold orgered just for the .476 enfield chambered pistols. It should be a dandy. Personally I don't care for the .455 chambered WG pistols as much as the .476 chambered ones. I really like that cartridge in the big WG revolver.
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Ok that makes sence as i knew you had good luck with your .476 guns fitting 45 sch yours will or should all chamber and cycle a 45 colt to if they cycle a 45 schofield as a 476 chamber is deep enough for a 45 colt case as well as 45 schofield.
Tho legaly it does not make a diffrence as its what they were orignal chambered for that they care about.
so if 45 colt just happens to fit then your aok still.
Shows how stupid the Caliber rules lists really are.

I like long chambers to thats why i have a 45 schofield cylinder for my Colt Bisley FTT gets that bullet right up to the forceing cone.
But im lazy as a pet coon so have a 45 Acp cylinder for it as well. so i can shoot that cheep factory 45 ACP Wolf ammo loaded with SWC lead bullets SFRC sells.

Thats the key to good accuracy in any revolver is less bullet jump and good matchs with bullets and chamber throats and bore, at least thats what i have seen.

Heres a trick you guys might like if you like longer chambers....:cool:
I have a MKI** Cylinder set up to shoot 45 winchester mag cases (just ream the chambers a tad deeper with a 45 colt reamer)
Now instead of 45 acp use the longer Win Mag brass.
Yes they all fit in the full moon clips but the cases are 45 schofield length ;) i just crimp the keith bullets over there shoulder and seat them deeper.
The gun outshoots all the 45 Acp Webleys hands down.

I have a 6 inch MKV Barrel for my MKI** to and its more or as accurate as any 6 inch barreled WG useing the Win mag brass thats the same length as a 45 sch case gets that bullet right up by the forceing cone.
 
dingus ,

i was looking at my 45 acp reamer and it apears that i can go as deep as 1.2 inches with it .

would that be enough to make a 45 win mag case work ?

and just out of curiosity , off the top of your head , what guns have a long enough cylinder to make this work
 
burnt_servo said:
dingus ,

i was looking at my 45 acp reamer and it apears that i can go as deep as 1.2 inches with it .

would that be enough to make a 45 win mag case work ?

and just out of curiosity , off the top of your head , what guns have a long enough cylinder to make this work
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Well i only have it in a MKI** Cylinder which is a MKV cylinder and there the same pretty much as a MKVI cylinder.
Im not sure if a 45 Acp reamer will work.
But the regular MKI cylinder is long enough but if you use SWC keith bullets like i do you have to crimp over there shoulder band.
Id have to check the length of one of my win mag cases in a set of moon clips to give you the extact depth the best way is buy some 45 win mag brass load up a dummy round load it in a moon clip and then you know.;)

The thing is not all 45 acp shaved MKI or MKII cylinders have the exact same amount of metal removed when there shaved years ago so each cylinder will be abit diffrent. some have to much metal removed.
But it does work me and a few other guys are doing it with good success.
Gets the bullets right up front.
Still have to use reduced loads in a regular MKI cylinder but my MKI** with a MKV cylinder handles 800 FPS loads all day long with no latch play at all.

I just checked if you can go 1.200 deep that should be enough i think 1.150 would be right but thats a rough guess holding my caliper on a win supper mag brass case.
 
dingus said:
Well i only have it in a MKI** Cylinder which is a MKV cylinder and there the same pretty much as a MKVI cylinder.
Im not sure if a 45 Acp reamer will work.
But the regular MKI cylinder is long enough but if you use SWC keith bullets like i do you have to crimp over there shoulder band.
Id have to check the length of one of my win mag cases in a set of moon clips to give you the extact depth the best way is buy some 45 win mag brass load up a dummy round load it in a moon clip and then you know.;)

The thing is not all 45 acp shaved MKI or MKII cylinders have the exact same amount of metal removed when there shaved years ago so each cylinder will be abit diffrent. some have to much metal removed.
But it does work me and a few other guys are doing it with good success.
Gets the bullets right up front.
Still have to use reduced loads in a regular MKI cylinder but my MKI** with a MKV cylinder handles 800 FPS loads all day long with no latch play at all.

I just checked if you can go 1.200 deep thats should be enough i think 1.150 would be right but thats a rough guess holding my caliper on a win supper mag brass case.
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thank you :) .......

what about the french 1873 / 1874 cylinder do you think there would be enough room for the 45 win mag case in them ?
 
burnt_servo said:
thank you :) .......

what about the french 1873 / 1874 cylinder do you think there would be enough room for the 45 win mag case in them ?
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I dont know for sure but as the 45 Acp bullet is so close as it is i done see a real advantage to useing a win mag case.
 
I would really suggest that if people want a gun with modern performance, they BUY a gun that will take modern ammunition and do it safely.

ALL of those old Webleys were Proofed for 12440 PSI.

The .45ACP generally runs 19,000 or higher.

That should give you just a tiny hint that you might be doing something wrong.
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You will get the best accuracy in the Webley by using the WEBLEY bullet: 265 grains, long semi-pointed round nose, very deep base cavity with a very thin skirt. RCBS makes the mould. For some unknown reason, they call it a WEBLEY mould.

BTW, the Webley bullet also makes a pretty good plinking bullet for a Martini; lots of Martinis have greatly oversize bores and this bullet will upset at the skirt and shoot fairly well.
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smellie said:
I would really suggest that if people want a gun with modern performance, they BUY a gun that will take modern ammunition and do it safely.

ALL of those old Webleys were Proofed for 12440 PSI.

The .45ACP generally runs 19,000 or higher.

That should give you just a tiny hint that you might be doing something wrong.
..................................

You will get the best accuracy in the Webley by using the WEBLEY bullet: 265 grains, long semi-pointed round nose, very deep base cavity with a very thin skirt. RCBS makes the mould. For some unknown reason, they call it a WEBLEY mould.

BTW, the Webley bullet also makes a pretty good plinking bullet for a Martini; lots of Martinis have greatly oversize bores and this bullet will upset at the skirt and shoot fairly well.
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If you read the entire posts about what were talking about its not shooting hot factory ammo in our guns its about getting great accuracy from them.
guess you missed the part about useing reduced loads.

The only guns i shoot abit hotter loads in is a mKI** which is rebuilt by the Webley factory in 1914 up to mKV standards used in 1914 with modern 45 acp ammo for years.
Best to reload tho we always say that and some the guys just miss that part.
 
So, what's involved with fitting a MK V cylinder to a MK I or MK II frame? Does this require modifications to the original frame or anything else that requires additional parts or special tools?
 
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