Dog help needed.

R

Redfrog

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Alberta
Here's my situation. Possibly someone has some leads.

I have hunted and trailed Labs over the years. I only hunt them now.

I have two males that are getting old. One is 8 and one is 9. At this point neither realizes he is that old, but any of you lab owners know that they can age quickly.

I want to get a replacement pup or two.
I would like to use one of my dogs[ the younger one] for a stud to get a pup.


He is very well bred, with a field trial pedigree. He does not look like most field trail labs in that he is large[ 90 lbs], with a large head.

He is a black but carries chocolate genes [ Pachanga Magnum]
BTW, my dog's grandfather beat "Magnum" several times.;)

I had the female that whelped the litter that my dog came from. Black ##### /chocolate sire.

The litter had 3 chocolates, 7 blacks. Unfortunately the chocolates did not meet my requirements.

Without getting into a discussion of black vs. chocolate, I'm looking for a chocolate with a black heart. Failing this I want a black.
My dogs are hard charging, high dogs. I like this type of dog, because I want some dog left at the end of a long day of work.

So what I'm looking for is someone with a female that they would be interested in breeding to my dog, or a female they would lease or sell. The female would have to be registered, field trial lineage and have hips/eyes etc. cert.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.
 
The science of breeding labs and getting a certain color is well, NOT A SCIENCE. There is no statistical probability to predict a litter and knowing 'x' many generations of litters and the percentage of each color will be absolutely useless. Yes sometimes you'll breed two yella's and get nothing but yella's, or a black and choc and get 50% of each...but the rest of the time it is pure luck. Breeding labs isnt like predicting your baby's eye color based on yours/your parents/and the grandparents...it's 100% random. I have observed two choc's breading and have nothing but yellow and blacks...and i've seen a yellow and choc with no blacks in the line get all blacks pups. The only thing certain about breeding labs is:
1. somewhere down the line they are more than likely embred from the result of an AMAZINGLY overbed dog (unless you have papers but I've heard that with some breeds like labs embreeding is often overlooked)
2. you'll get either a choc, yellow, or black...thats just the way it goes.
 
Color possibilities are based on genetics which is a science with some variables, not just chance. Just a matter of dominant and recessive genes.
Given that, you can get a litter that bucks the odds, but not one that will defy science. The principles are no different than with rabbits, cattle, or fruit flies. The trick is to reduce the variables and have enough background information on the genetic makeup to be able to accurately predict the possibilities. It's actually fascinating, in a mathematical sort of way!
Now back to the search for a suitable brood ##### for Redfrog!
 
nlevandier said:
The science of breeding labs and getting a certain color is well, NOT A SCIENCE. There is no statistical probability to predict a litter and knowing 'x' many generations of litters and the percentage of each color will be absolutely useless. Yes sometimes you'll breed two yella's and get nothing but yella's, or a black and choc and get 50% of each...but the rest of the time it is pure luck. Breeding labs isnt like predicting your baby's eye color based on yours/your parents/and the grandparents...it's 100% random. I have observed two choc's breading and have nothing but yellow and blacks...and i've seen a yellow and choc with no blacks in the line get all blacks pups. The only thing certain about breeding labs is:
1. somewhere down the line they are more than likely embred from the result of an AMAZINGLY overbed dog (unless you have papers but I've heard that with some breeds like labs embreeding is often overlooked)
2. you'll get either a choc, yellow, or black...thats just the way it goes.
Click to expand...



Not true. Labrador genetics are well documented and entirely predictable. Do a Google.
 
6mm Shooter said:
Get a black lab/border collie cross and have none of the problems Labs have but all of their hunting/tracking instincts. Plus the dog will be able to run forever.
Click to expand...


Labs have no problems.:rockOn:

BTW I have a border collie.:D

"FYI Magnum Force's parents and grandparents on both sides were all black labs, so he was a chocolate with a black heart "

Mudpuppy, that is my point exactly.

The first time I saw Magnum was on the Alberta field trial circuit. He was running in the junior stakes, 1-2yrs old.

At that time in the field trail game there were few dogs that weren't black that could do much in competition. While a lot of people really liked the yellows and chocolates for the colour, it was very hard to find a good one.


DISCLAIMER: I do not want anyone to take this the wrong way. I'm sure there are thousands of yellows and chocolates, registered and unregistered, cross bred and mixed bred dogs that are out standing hunting dogs. That's not the ones I'm talking about. I'm not slagging anyone's dog. I think anyone that owns any kind of dog is blessed.

Anyway Magnum had a lot of drive and ability, what he lacked was training. His owner was very eager and interested in competing with the dog. but did not have a lot of experience training field trail dogs. He joined us for a week of training between trials.

The next year when the trails started again, Magnum had to run in the open, because of his age. He won everything and while I had beaten him the year before, he kicked my ass along with everone else's in his open year.

I know he went on to sire many dogs, but I got away from the field game, and haven't heard of his offspring doing much outstanding.

Mudpuppy, if you know anything else about him, let me know.
 
Got just what you are looking for!

Redfrog,

I have a tri coloured Beagle that will fit the bill.

I wouldn't try breeding your dog yourself! Leave that to the experts!

I can get certificates from the SPCA that she has both eyes and a set of hips. I can also get you certificates (receipts)from the SPCA that she is a good runner.

Being tri-coloured, you should be able to get a brown dog out of her with your balck dog so you will have the best of both worlds. I think you will get a great dog that you will be able to pheasant hunt over with you new 9mm as mine is used to gunshots at her.

This is what I like about CGN, darn good people helping the hopeless.

PM me if this is what you are looking for.

Oh ya I forgot, I am willing to lease my female wife if you want that too!
 
dogs

ACC ....OMG!!! I can't believe my good fortune!!!! You mean I could breed and expect to get a "Rainbow" dog. :eek: Perfect for the parade in Vancouver.:bigHug:

Seriously I've seen your dog,:puke: and she is not exactly what I'm looking for. I already have slippers.:p

BTW I've forwarded your post to your wife.:wave:
 
BTW I've forwarded your post to your wife.
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Hey ACC if your wife takes this information without killing you too bad i may be interested too. I've just got the one Alberta girl in my house and it would be nice to mix things up a little ya know... :D :D ;)

Note to self- do not let wife read CGN for a while :eek:
 
FTCH-AFTCH Pachanga's Magnum Force (1988 - 2000), history's all-time high point field trial chocolate Labrador Retriever.
36 Junior points (6 first placings) at 15 months of age.
Obtained both Open All-Age Titles at 24 months of age.
Acquired 28 All-Age Points at 27 months of age.
115-plus All-Age Points in limited trialing.
Producer of AKC/CKC field champions, AKC/CKC/NAHRA/UKC Master Hunters and hunting retriever champions plus show champions.
100% amateur trained and handled without the use of electronic collar, attesting to tremendous natural ability.
Phenomenal ability to mark birds and run straight lines.
When not running field trials, Magnum was an incredible bird-hunter and a great companion.
OFA good, eyes CERF, 90 lbs.
MagnumForce2.jpg
MagnumForce1.jpg

MagnumForce3.jpg

Most of the pups he sired were used for hunting dogs or breeding. A lot of them obtained their trial papers and have their appropriate designations but the only one that I know of that was trialed in serious competition was FTCH-AFTCH Big Valley's Costa-Lot Shadow, Canadian Derby Champion 1994 (59 points, 9 wins) and qualified for 7 Nationals. This is Shadow's son Moose, he's 100 pounds and enjoys his life as a stud.
MoosesonofMagnum.jpg

The breeder of Magnum supposidly ran afoul of the ACK/CKC several years ago, rumor was it was over money issues and it's said that it affected the ability of his pups to obtain paperwork and therefore titles. I never heard the full story but it is supposed to have been cleared up now. Some say many people who were running dogs during that time without official papers never pursued the issue after the tiff was over so there are a few unofficial champions out there.
Again this is all second hand info but may explain why you don't see more of Magnum's pups in the record books. There are however a lot of dogs with his bloodlines there.​


The big hammerhead in this picture, from last summer, is a son of Magnum, he was from the second last litter he sired. The "small" guy is a great-great grandson (the ###y leg is mine :D )
Troublemakers6.jpg

The big guy is 12 years old now and he peaked at 105 pounds in his prime, he's down to about 93 in the picture, trying to make it easier on his joints as he's starting to stiffen up a bit.
He is an incredible dog, has the brains and the drive to hunt all day, he has slowed down in his old age but the mind is still sharp as ever. He is also a true alpha male and beat the snot out of his littermates, harassed his mother and even at 12 he cops an attitude towards other dogs :D . He almost drowned a rotty that tried to mess with his fetch:eek:​

The other guy is almost 3 now, he was 88 pounds in this picture because I was running him hard all summer, he normally weighs in at 91 pounds during hunting season. He also has the Magnum qualities and would rather hunt than eat. He will even pop a woddy when he sees you with a shotgun, he lives to hunt (he is also the dog in my avatar).​


I have never heard any serious negatives about any of the dogs with Magnum's blood, other than they can be hammerheads at times but that is because they need to be challenged. I have talked to one couple that had to give back their dog because they couldn't handle him, they wanted a family dog only and never ran him, only played with him in the backyard. Dogs from his line need to be worked to be happy, they thrive on it.​

Magnum was pretty well known and I have no problem getting a pup with his bloodlines. His breeder is supposed to have frozen sperm still available.​
 
Jim
Saw the title and thought you were talking about the "bait hound" you keep under the table.Garnet and I will never forget your wifes expression when you came out with that one.:eek:

Rich
 
dogs

Mudpuppy, thanks for the info and the pics. I think Magnums fame was more that he was a chocolate doing outstanding work than a lab doing outstanding work.

There were a lot of his offspring on the ground competing before the trouble started and I didn't see alot of them doing very much.

Those dogs in the pics are great looking dogs and the one coming off the deck is definitely a high flyer:D

Thanks again.


RR My wife wants to talk to you :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
can someone explain why the color of a dog has anything to do with how good it will be in competition:confused: im having trouble figuring out why you want a chocolate witha blacks heart. what makes a black any different than a yellow or chocolate if they all come from the same litter?
 
dogs

I don't know.
Natural selection maybe????

When it comes to labs I operate on a few basic pinciples.

Yellow is a state of mind, not a colour.

With chocolates, even Forest Gump knows you "never know what you are going to get"

And well.....once you try black....you'll never go back.:D

In all fairness, it depends on the standard you use to judge the dog.

In the field trial game, there are a lot more blacks competing than other colours, so it is reasonable to expect more blacks to place.
I have seen some great yellow dogs and some great chocolates, but I see a lot more duds in those colors than good ones.
This does not mean that yellows or chocolates are not good dogs or good retreivers, so don't take offence.....none is intended.

It could simply be that a lot of people outside the competition like those colours and they are looking for a pet or casual hunting dog. Often these same people do not have the expertise or time required to bring a dog to serious competitiveness.

I've had good yellows and chocolates, but never one that would make the field trail cut.

When one comes along, he is more famous because he is colored and can do the work, instead of a black that would be recognized for doing the work.

With all the balcks in the competition, a balck would have to be outstanding to make the cut.
 
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