drop in barrels for custom actions.
- Thread starter chajam
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Only if the action has the same thread dimensions as a Remington or Savage (or Mauser). - dan
No. Chambering, Headspacing, and throating are usually very very precisely matched to your specific action and bolt face measurements. Putting a drop-in barrel on a BAT action would be like putting Walmart house brand tires on your Ferrari
I thought the reason was that on factory actions the headspace was different on each action. With a custom action The headspace should be the same. as an example aren,t you able to order drop in replacement barrels for accuracy international rifles.
Threads are different, bolt styles are different (conical bolt faces, Remington styles) extractor styles may be different etc.
The tolerances from action to action are such that even those are measured when re-barreling.
the AI is a poor example as it is a sniper rifle designed with field grade tolerances. It is not a benchrest rifle, nor was it designed as such.
In any case, I can think of nobody that would invest in an action such as a Surgeon, BAT, Nesika or Barnard that would then put just a drop-in barrel on there, unless they wanted to use their rifle for varmint hunting or something. No barrel maker would ever put the money or effort into ramping up production of drop-in barrels for custom actions. Trust me, they wouldn't sell enough to make it worth your while, and in the end, you wouldn't save much money or time.
The tolerances from action to action are such that even those are measured when re-barreling.
the AI is a poor example as it is a sniper rifle designed with field grade tolerances. It is not a benchrest rifle, nor was it designed as such.
In any case, I can think of nobody that would invest in an action such as a Surgeon, BAT, Nesika or Barnard that would then put just a drop-in barrel on there, unless they wanted to use their rifle for varmint hunting or something. No barrel maker would ever put the money or effort into ramping up production of drop-in barrels for custom actions. Trust me, they wouldn't sell enough to make it worth your while, and in the end, you wouldn't save much money or time.
Obtunded, can you Post some pics of barrels in .223, 20" in a med-hvy contour?
I'm looking for such a barrel for a Stiller.Barrel specs 1-8, 20"
I want to get an idea of the contour style and an idea of the weight, this will not be a bench gun, rather a field gun for coyotes. Thanks
I'm looking for such a barrel for a Stiller.Barrel specs 1-8, 20"
I want to get an idea of the contour style and an idea of the weight, this will not be a bench gun, rather a field gun for coyotes. Thanks
I understand that pre fit barrels must still be headspaced. I am new to this and am just trying to understand and learn more about the process of getting a custom barrel made for a rifle build. I should have asked If a gunsmith has chambered and threaded say 9barrels for a stiller predator action, can he make the tenth without having the action in his hand? and if so then for example, why couldn't shilen who threads and chambers thier prefits chamber and thread a barrel for that stiller action.
Shilen specializes in Savage drop in barrels. They use a barrel nut system - which is not unlike the system used to adjust the cutting depth on an electric router - that allows for a measure of headspace adjustment through the ability to adjust how deep the barrel sits in the action. They also use a floating bolt head. I am not a gunsmith, but three of the best gunsmith/builders/barrel-makers I know all dislike the Savage systems. I know of no Canadians campaigning the Savage action/system in provincial, interprovincial, or national competition.
Clearly, the Savage system can be made to work - and work well - but it is a hard sell to those that have made a name for themselves through years of international precision shooting expertise.
Mysticplayer is the only Savage shooter I have ever met that has done well at what he does. Is this a measure of the person or his equipment? I don't know. He practices what he preaches and vice versa.
My point is, the overwhelming majority of top shooters, top barrel makers and top gunsmiths eschew the barrel nut/drop-in barrel system. Maybe ask them why that is.
Clearly, the Savage system can be made to work - and work well - but it is a hard sell to those that have made a name for themselves through years of international precision shooting expertise.
Mysticplayer is the only Savage shooter I have ever met that has done well at what he does. Is this a measure of the person or his equipment? I don't know. He practices what he preaches and vice versa.
My point is, the overwhelming majority of top shooters, top barrel makers and top gunsmiths eschew the barrel nut/drop-in barrel system. Maybe ask them why that is.
outbounded I am not asking about a prefit savage. I am asking whether or not a gunsmith can chamber and thread one of your krieger barrels for a stiller prediter or tac 30 from spec(without sending the action to the gun smith) I don't mean to sound harsh,I am just curious.
No, the gunsmith needs to have your action in order to thread, chamber and set the headspace properly and index the barrel so that the caliber info is where it should be.
Your original question was for a drop in barrel (pre threaded and chambered) not for a custom barrel hence the information you were given about drop in barrels.
Your original question was for a drop in barrel (pre threaded and chambered) not for a custom barrel hence the information you were given about drop in barrels.
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Ok then, your answer is "No". - dan
Mystic Precision
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There are smiths in the US that do make switch barrels for their clients without the action.
So yes, some custom action brands do make their actions identical in all important dimensions and actually catalog these for reference - at least that is what I read (I think it was Stiller but I am sure there are others).
Best is to contact the action manf and see what they have to say. I am sure it will not take long to find your answer.
The Savage action has recently come on like gang busters and is winning and setting records in the US - EVEN with the barrel nut install. Factory savages ( at least that's what they say) have won at the US national F class levels team events in 2008 and finished in the top 10 for individual shooting.
The number of shooters using this action is growing rapidly and I am most certainly not the only reporting excellent results. Both shouldered and barrel nut installs are being used with equal success. A quality barrel with a properly cut chamber is way more important then whether the barrel headspaces off the shoulder or 'jam nut'.
There are now some custom smith experimenting with a similar jam nut set up as they feel it is a way to reduce the stress of headspacing. Pretty soon we will even see this format offered for the Rem 700 although I don't see it working as well as the Savage due to a lack of the floating bolthead (the floating bolthead is a VERY VERY good thing).
I am sure the Rem varmint shooters will be thrilled.
Prefit and prechambered barrels have been offered for Savage/Stevens actions for years now and there are many many reports of superb performance. 1/4 min is not unusual. This is an average not a hero group. That's right there with mega dollar rigs.
My competition shooting with the Savage action shows that it leaves little to the BR actions as far as useage in the F class world. The limiting factor is definitely the barrel not the action. My experimenting with bolt timing is making the bolt lifts surprisingly light and smooth - a far cry from how they come from the factory. Light enough for 'gunning? I don't know as I don't shoot that way.
With an aftermarket trigger or the new target trigger, you can get down to 4 to 6oz pulls. Not 1 to 2 oz Jewell light, but light enough for me.
If you are going to the expense of getting a custom action, why would you not want a quality smith to install your barrel on your action? I doubt you would save much if any money.
Jerry
So yes, some custom action brands do make their actions identical in all important dimensions and actually catalog these for reference - at least that is what I read (I think it was Stiller but I am sure there are others).
Best is to contact the action manf and see what they have to say. I am sure it will not take long to find your answer.
The Savage action has recently come on like gang busters and is winning and setting records in the US - EVEN with the barrel nut install. Factory savages ( at least that's what they say) have won at the US national F class levels team events in 2008 and finished in the top 10 for individual shooting.
The number of shooters using this action is growing rapidly and I am most certainly not the only reporting excellent results. Both shouldered and barrel nut installs are being used with equal success. A quality barrel with a properly cut chamber is way more important then whether the barrel headspaces off the shoulder or 'jam nut'.
There are now some custom smith experimenting with a similar jam nut set up as they feel it is a way to reduce the stress of headspacing. Pretty soon we will even see this format offered for the Rem 700 although I don't see it working as well as the Savage due to a lack of the floating bolthead (the floating bolthead is a VERY VERY good thing).
I am sure the Rem varmint shooters will be thrilled.
Prefit and prechambered barrels have been offered for Savage/Stevens actions for years now and there are many many reports of superb performance. 1/4 min is not unusual. This is an average not a hero group. That's right there with mega dollar rigs.
My competition shooting with the Savage action shows that it leaves little to the BR actions as far as useage in the F class world. The limiting factor is definitely the barrel not the action. My experimenting with bolt timing is making the bolt lifts surprisingly light and smooth - a far cry from how they come from the factory. Light enough for 'gunning? I don't know as I don't shoot that way.
With an aftermarket trigger or the new target trigger, you can get down to 4 to 6oz pulls. Not 1 to 2 oz Jewell light, but light enough for me.
If you are going to the expense of getting a custom action, why would you not want a quality smith to install your barrel on your action? I doubt you would save much if any money.
Jerry
Yes it can be done. You need a willing and very experienced gunsmith. Most will want to see the action once, take note of some critical measurements then they can chamber without the action. Some may mock up some threads to check fit etc.
Kelblys can do it without the action. Borden did/does? Those are 2 I am aware of.
There are three critical measurements two of which are more critical than the third.
Tenon length is moderately critical and, with the coned breeches common to many custom actions, a little difficult to measure with out proper guages.
Thread pitch diameter is slightly more critical since , if it's too large, the barrel won't fit! Surprisingly, threads a little on the loose side still shoot very well. They are just hard to like.
The headspace measurement is, arguably, the most important. If one is wanting to screw the barrel on and be able to continue using his old brass, headspace has to be within +/- .001" with zero being preferable.
The Stolle actions I have barreled were precise enough that barrels were virtually interchangable ;as long as the threads had some clearance. Pitch diameter and headspace were both within .001".
So, it can be done if the specs are given to the gunsmith and those specs are correct. Chamber dimensions are determined by reamer dimensions however and one cannot be certain all reamers are the same. Send the gunsmith an old barrel, or the breech end thereof, and he should be able to duplicate tenon dimensions and headspace for you. Expect that chamber diameter might be tighter or looser as determined by the dimensions of his chambering reamer. If you want a tighter thread fit, plan on mailing some test pieces back and forth. Regards, Bill.
Tenon length is moderately critical and, with the coned breeches common to many custom actions, a little difficult to measure with out proper guages.
Thread pitch diameter is slightly more critical since , if it's too large, the barrel won't fit! Surprisingly, threads a little on the loose side still shoot very well. They are just hard to like.
The headspace measurement is, arguably, the most important. If one is wanting to screw the barrel on and be able to continue using his old brass, headspace has to be within +/- .001" with zero being preferable.
The Stolle actions I have barreled were precise enough that barrels were virtually interchangable ;as long as the threads had some clearance. Pitch diameter and headspace were both within .001".
So, it can be done if the specs are given to the gunsmith and those specs are correct. Chamber dimensions are determined by reamer dimensions however and one cannot be certain all reamers are the same. Send the gunsmith an old barrel, or the breech end thereof, and he should be able to duplicate tenon dimensions and headspace for you. Expect that chamber diameter might be tighter or looser as determined by the dimensions of his chambering reamer. If you want a tighter thread fit, plan on mailing some test pieces back and forth. Regards, Bill.
ANy of Kelblys new stuff can be fit without the action and there are others out there.
As mentioned BAt is another. Check with the maker and He'll let you know. I'm one of those guys who keeps notes on actions I think might come back again. Though I prefer to have the action in hand. I once fit for four differant Bats they were identical!! I've never done one of Stillers?? regards Randy.
As mentioned BAt is another. Check with the maker and He'll let you know. I'm one of those guys who keeps notes on actions I think might come back again. Though I prefer to have the action in hand. I once fit for four differant Bats they were identical!! I've never done one of Stillers?? regards Randy.
