I was watching discovery channel's Daily Planet where they visited an explosives laboratory that tests and modifies commonly available chemicals/components/substances so terrorists can't make bombs with them. One of the explosives was blackpowder and apparently they make an additive to dumb it down so it explodes a lot slower. I've never heard of this, is the blackpowder we buy like Goex made with this?
Dumbed down black powder??
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Not sure why you would want to slow black powder to begin with. It's already considered a low explosive. Most of your general homemade "bad guy" bombs (eg ANFO or HME) are even classified as high explosives, so slower doesn't make sense to me.
I suspect that is BS. A pipe bomb containing BP doesn't explode from the powder detonating. It is the rapid increase in pressure from the gas produced by the burning of the powder that causes the pipe casing to burst. This is not technically an explosion but rather the bursting of a sealed container. Thus adding something to slow BP down wouldn't have any effect on the end result. Pipe bombs made with it would still go BANG.
Graphite is added to smokeless powder to slow its burning rate but that has nothing to do with it being used for nefarious purposes but rather to stop it blowing your gun up.
Sapper, sorry to burst your bubble but Black Powder is a HIGH Explosive (1.1D) and Smokeless Powder is a Low Explosive (1.3C) and if both are subject to confinement, depending on the degree of confinement they can both high order detonate! That would be an interesting show to watch, any idea what the exact title was?
It concerns me that someone with EOD in their avatar doesn't know the difference between a high order and low order detonation.
Black Powder is NOT a high explosive and cannot even come close to a high order explosion. With just a tiny bit of research you will discover this and get educated as to the difference between the two.
I don't care one wit how transport Canada or some other government agency classifies the stuff, the reality is that BP deflagrates at a speed much less than needed to be considered a high explosive. It does NOT high order detonate.
This webpage "Explosives.org" lists BP as a low explosive right on its front page. http://www.explosives.org/How.htm
If you are too lazy to look it up for yourself, here are the definitions:
There is a HUGE difference between deflagration and detonation. In the case of deflagration there is no shockwave or detonation wave transmitted through the substance. To be classed as a high explosive, there must be a detonation wave that propogates through the material, converting it from solid to gas almost instantaniously.
Maybe so but if BP was dumbed down to the point where it could not be used to make a bomb then it wouldn't be any use as a propellant or blasting agent and so there would be no point in making the stuff in the first place.
Just cause you saw it on TV doesn't make it true.
I saw that show as well. I think the idea was to mix in that 'dumbing down" stuff after they'd located a bomb or whatever. It's not already in BP or we'd have to start clubbing deer over the head during muzzleloader season.
That's hilarious, adding a "special" chemical to BP after they find a bomb.
Hey, I'll sell them a very effective chemical, dihydrogen monoxide, and even give them a discount.
But then again, this information/misinformation will certainly confuse and discourage the average terrorist. Based on the results of recent "terrorist" attempts, Time's Square, Underwear Bomber, they aren't the brightest bulbs on the tree...
Then you would get firecrackers that only go pfffftzzzz?
And yes, black powder is a low velocity explosive.This entire thing reminds me of 5 or so years ago when NRCAN demonstrated the dangers of smokeless powder explosives, in their attempt to regulate it even more. They built a room out of plywood, including a ceiling, and put in a window and door. They then ignited an 8lb plastic keg of 700X by placing it on top of a big propane burner/stove in the centre of the room. (700X is among the fasted powders)
What happened? It "exploded", big flash, left some burn marks on things inside the room, blew the walls down, lifted the ceiling off. But it DIDN'T break the glass in the window......
EDIT: found one of the vids
http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/mms-smm/expl-expl/cerl-lcre/video/PropellantTesting.wmv
Since your knowledge is probably based on the internet (I'm assuming), I would like to suggest that you try using the Canadian Transport of dangerous Goods Act, Clear Language Edition , or internationally IATA and ICAO, for the correct classifications of both Black Powder and Smokeless Powder. It has only in the past 15 or so years that the United States has been slowly adopting the UN classification and regulations that Canada adopted in the late '70's, so it is very possible that what site you visited might not be up to date.As for Black Powder and Smokeless powder having the capability to high order , yes they due, particularly under CONFINEMENT. As for my credentials, I stand willing to match them with yours. Feel free to PM me. By the way, your probably the only person who as ever called me lazy.
Gunpowder is an explosive. Under the Explosives Act and the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, Black Powder is classified as 1.1D and Smokeless Powder is classified as 1.3C
Definitions: Hazard Classification Code
Class: 1.1 This Division comprises ammunition and explosives which have a mass explosive hazard:
(1) The major hazards are blast, high velocity projections, and other projections of relatively low velocity.
(2) The explosion results in severe structural damage to surrounding buildings, the severed range being determined by the amount of high explosives involved and the distance to the buildings from the explosion site. There may be a risk from heavy debris propelled from the structure in which the explosion occurs or from the crater.
Class 1.3 This division comprises ammunition and explosives which have a fire hazard and either a minor blast hazard or a or a minor projection hazard or both, but not a mass explosion hazard. This division includes some items which burn with great violence and intense heat emitting considerable thermal radiation (mass fire hazard) and they are classed as Hazard Division 1.33. Others, which burns sporadically are, classified Hazard Division 1.34. Items in Hazard Division 1.33 or 1.34 may explode but do not form dangerous fragments. Firebrands and burning containers may be projected.
Now we shall look at the phenomena of propellant burning to detonation;
Definitions
High Order Detonation:
Detonation at a velocity approaching the maximum stable VELOCITY OF DETONATION for the system.
Low Order Detonation:
Detonation of an explosive at the velocity well below the maximum stable VELOCITY OF DETONATION for the system.
Deflagration:
1) A rapid burning in which convection often plays an important role.
2) Used in mining to describe the burning of an explosive which has failed to detonate.
High Explosive: These type of explosives are designed to shatter and destroy. There is a wide range in the detonation velocities of high explosives, extending from ammonium nitrate at 3,300 fps up to HMX at 29,900 fps.
Low Explosive: Causes an explosion whose action is that of rapid burning or combustion. The rate of burning depends on the degree of confinement, area of burning surface and the composition of the low explosive (Velocity is 1,100 to 8,500 mps)
Theory of Deflagration and Detonation
If a particle of an explosive is subjected to heat so as to cause a rapid increase in its temperature, a point is reached at which the rate of exothermic decomposition becomes significant. At temperatures within the approximate range of 500C to 1,700C, this decomposition involves volatilitization from the surface prior to decomposition. The heat liberated by decomposition increases the rate of reaction, and the resulting rate increase in temperature is exponential. At a certain temperature, characteristic of the explosive, the output of heat is sufficient to enable the reaction to proceed and be accelerated without input of heat from another source. At this certain temperature, called the ignition temperature, deflagration begins. Deflagration is a surface phenomenon, with the reaction products flowing away from the unreacted material below the surface. Deflagration of all the particles in a mass of finely divided explosive can occur simultaneously. In such case the confinement of the particles within the mass, because of the viscosity of the gaseous products, has the effect of increasing pressure. Increase in pressure in turn, has the effect of increasing the rate of reaction and temperature. The final effect of the deflagration under confinement is explosion, which may be violent deflagration or even detonation. In the case of low explosives such as loose black powder and pyrotechnic compositions only violent deflagration can take place. Nitrocellulose propellants can undergo burning or if confinement is sufficient, deflagration can become so rapid that detonation occur.
These are the legal definitions that are accepted that in Canada by people that ship, manufacture, handle and regulate explosives and ammunition. In other words people that handle those particular dangerous goods on a daily basis.
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Irregardless of personal feelings of anybody here, they are classified that way by the UN and CERL in Canada and they are the authority for the regulatory body (NRCan) that controls these items. Thats probably why you find these commodities in the Explosives act, rather than the firearms act.
That's hilarious, adding a "special" chemical to BP after they find a bomb.
Hey, I'll sell them a very effective chemical, dihydrogen monoxide, and even give them a discount.
Do you need a special license for that? I've heard about that one, it's in our bodies, it falls from the sky, and worst of all, our lakes are full of it.
I don't give a FLYING #### how some government burocrat classifies anything. If the government said the sky was green would you be arguing their point?
From your own post
What is the detonation velocity of BP? That would be 1312 fps which if you read what you posted puts it well below the range of a high explosive. So the government burocrats can class it "stinky cheese" as far as I am concerned but that doesn't change the fact that BP is NOT a high explosive.
If you still think that smokeless powder is an explosive then stick a fuze or a detonator into a one pound bottle of it and see what happens. There will be a big flash, lots of flame and some smoke but NO explosion. That is cause the stuff is not an explosive .... except of course in the mind of some government burocrat.
smokeless powder by itself is a flammable solid or a class four dangerous good. like zinc based paint or matches. ammunition contains a primer which changes the classification. these classes are for the fireman who puts out the fire and have no bearing on how explosive things are. except in the most extreme of cases.
Please quote your sources. And Suputin remember I also specified degree of confinement. By reading your posting, you give me the impression that you don't have a lot of experience working in the explosives world.
Degree of confinement is irrelevant. If you want to include that, then even AIR is "explosive" when compressed...... In the US, smokeless powder is still considered a combustible solid.
So what are propane and gasoline defined as? Explosives? Confine them and ignite at optimum mixture and the results are quite dramatic. A propane fuel air explosion has a velocity of 1800 m/s, which puts it into the high explosive category, almost double the velocity of AN as quoted in your table above. (Note that ANFO has a velocity of 3,000 to 5,000 m/s)
I agree with Suputin as I also look at the physical reactions rather than the bureaucratic definitions.
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