Dutch AR-10 or early US models
- Thread starter Deckard
- Start date
I have oowned and shot the Dutch Sudanese version. As pictured above it had the full length handguard.
Great rifle, ahead of its time. Because of the inline barrel axis in relation to the stock, its quite good in recoil control.
Ahh I miss that rifle. Never had a problem with jams and was quite accurate with standard ball ammo.
The middle pic looks like one of the ones Wilke was selling in the 80's. I believe he had the wood stocks made up, becuase he only got the metal in and no furniture.
Do you own one?
Great rifle, ahead of its time. Because of the inline barrel axis in relation to the stock, its quite good in recoil control.
Ahh I miss that rifle. Never had a problem with jams and was quite accurate with standard ball ammo.
The middle pic looks like one of the ones Wilke was selling in the 80's. I believe he had the wood stocks made up, becuase he only got the metal in and no furniture.
Do you own one?
I had one of the Sudanese models. I enjoyed shooting it a lot. The furniture tended to have a few problems with cracking and they often seem to have worn barrels due to number of rounds fired on full auto.
I eventually sold mine because it was prohibited and I could not take it to the range any more.
I eventually sold mine because it was prohibited and I could not take it to the range any more.
Back in the day, I owned, shot, repaired, rebuilt, and customised about three dozen of the OLD AI/Dutch GENUINE AR-10 rifles. Sadly, those days are gone. When Converted Autos came into effect, the GENUINE AR-10's mostly disappeared into the wood work [ or the septic field? ]. Too bad! The only bad things I could say about the original AR 10 rifles, were that the Sudanese ones had ABYSMAL care ... as in pi$$ down the barrel to clean them ... that is IF they ever were cleaned. As for the Portuguese versions, they were a bit heavier, a bit more complicated [ adjustable gas ... which you never needed anyhow ] and not quite as sleek looking. Both versions had the rather fragile Aluminum 20 Rd Waffle mags.
I built one up late 1980's with milled [ half and half ] flat top, which retained the rear sight and had the front section as a Weaver base, RED DOT sight co-witnessed with the original Iron sights, shortened 18.5" barrel, AR 15 pistol grip, Ar 15 round handgrips, match set trigger, and skeletonised buttstock. This was my ALL TIME favorite rifle.
I also shot @ 600 yds with An AR 10, with fixed sights and issue IVI ball, and got a 600 yd 5 shot group you could cover with a 8 1/2" X 11" sheet of paper. I reloaded for my shorty ... 123 Gr lapua .311" AK/RUSSIAN bullets loaded to 7.62X39 BALL equivalent. Absolutely great for three gun matches. I also experimented with the Remington "Accelerator" factory loads [ .223 bullet in a .306 Sabot, at VERY high velocities ]. These were accurate, totally functional [ even in the NON-gas adjust sudanes ] and absolutely NO recoil to speak of. They did, however, shoot to a completely different point of aim. Ialso went huntig {legally] for Mooose and bear, and had a fun time explaining to the CO who stopped us, that my AR was a REAL gun ... not a poodle shooter.
However, in the early 90's, M-14 parts were cheap and available, and AR 10 parts were not, so I switched to M-14's [ Real ones, Chinese ones, and Sproingfields]. But that was then, and this is now.
These days, I play mostly with AR-15 rifles, but in an attempt to get back to a REAL caliber, I built mine in .300 Whisper. So many more parts, accessories, and USEFUL calibers are now available for the 15, that a .308
version just is not cost effective for me. With .22LR conversion, .300 Whisper, 7.62X39 conversions, AK mag conversion kits, .50 Beowulf, ... and more, who needs an AR 10??
BUT, if an AR TEN came my way cheap ... wellll, I'd have to say, they are still my favorite rifle.
But then ...
where would I get mags
and spare parts
and cheap accessories?
Nope, might as well stay with the poodle shooter ... and use .300W, with a spare .223/22 LR top end ... just in case?
[;{)
LAZ 1
I built one up late 1980's with milled [ half and half ] flat top, which retained the rear sight and had the front section as a Weaver base, RED DOT sight co-witnessed with the original Iron sights, shortened 18.5" barrel, AR 15 pistol grip, Ar 15 round handgrips, match set trigger, and skeletonised buttstock. This was my ALL TIME favorite rifle.
I also shot @ 600 yds with An AR 10, with fixed sights and issue IVI ball, and got a 600 yd 5 shot group you could cover with a 8 1/2" X 11" sheet of paper. I reloaded for my shorty ... 123 Gr lapua .311" AK/RUSSIAN bullets loaded to 7.62X39 BALL equivalent. Absolutely great for three gun matches. I also experimented with the Remington "Accelerator" factory loads [ .223 bullet in a .306 Sabot, at VERY high velocities ]. These were accurate, totally functional [ even in the NON-gas adjust sudanes ] and absolutely NO recoil to speak of. They did, however, shoot to a completely different point of aim. Ialso went huntig {legally] for Mooose and bear, and had a fun time explaining to the CO who stopped us, that my AR was a REAL gun ... not a poodle shooter.
However, in the early 90's, M-14 parts were cheap and available, and AR 10 parts were not, so I switched to M-14's [ Real ones, Chinese ones, and Sproingfields]. But that was then, and this is now.
These days, I play mostly with AR-15 rifles, but in an attempt to get back to a REAL caliber, I built mine in .300 Whisper. So many more parts, accessories, and USEFUL calibers are now available for the 15, that a .308
version just is not cost effective for me. With .22LR conversion, .300 Whisper, 7.62X39 conversions, AK mag conversion kits, .50 Beowulf, ... and more, who needs an AR 10??
BUT, if an AR TEN came my way cheap ... wellll, I'd have to say, they are still my favorite rifle.
But then ...
where would I get mags
and spare parts
and cheap accessories?
Nope, might as well stay with the poodle shooter ... and use .300W, with a spare .223/22 LR top end ... just in case?
[;{)
LAZ 1
I really like this Bushy
http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster_308.htm
http://www.gunblast.com/Bushmaster_308.htm
I've handled several of the "NEW" .308 AR-10 rifles. I like the Armalite best for feel and fit. The Bushmaster is also nice, with some very useful features, and it has the great advantage of using CHEAP FAL mags.
However, I would still take one of the old Sudanese AR-10's over the newer variants. The ORIGINAL AR-10 was designed from the start as a 7.62 NATO firearm. Eugene Stoner was a genuine genius. He got it right!! Then a committee [ probably made up of teeny tiny short peoples ] made him downsize his near perfect design into the .223 caliber poodle shooter 15 we all love to hate so much today.
This is called "progress".
The newer versions of the AR 10 make a lot of concessions to parts interchangeability with the AR 15's. In many cases, they have done a marvellous job of engineering compromises where AR-15 parts and accessories will interchange nicely.
BUT,
too many reports of unreliable feeding and parts breakage have reached my ears for me to trust these new kids unreservedly.
I DO trust my AR 15 rifles to be reliable and durable [ I built them that way ] and they are a robust, mature, time seasoned system.
But.
I do NOT trust the poodle cartridge to stop some of the dangerous critters I may run into here in BC [ and yes, I've read most of the wound/ ballistic literature ... and I've even shot three deer {legally}with .223 soft point ammo.] Which is why I built mine in .300 Whisper.
I DID trust the ORIGINAL AR 10 rifles ... with good mags, I NEVER had a failure to feed or breakage or stoppage in THOUSANDS of rounds through the old TENs . And some of those rounds were sent down range at "Fast Forward". On multiple targets, with short times, the Original TEN was the fastest handling , most controllable, FULL powered rifle I ever shot. And I won lots of money at bowling gun shoots to prove it.
[;{)
However, I would still take one of the old Sudanese AR-10's over the newer variants. The ORIGINAL AR-10 was designed from the start as a 7.62 NATO firearm. Eugene Stoner was a genuine genius. He got it right!! Then a committee [ probably made up of teeny tiny short peoples ] made him downsize his near perfect design into the .223 caliber poodle shooter 15 we all love to hate so much today.
This is called "progress".
The newer versions of the AR 10 make a lot of concessions to parts interchangeability with the AR 15's. In many cases, they have done a marvellous job of engineering compromises where AR-15 parts and accessories will interchange nicely.
BUT,
too many reports of unreliable feeding and parts breakage have reached my ears for me to trust these new kids unreservedly.
I DO trust my AR 15 rifles to be reliable and durable [ I built them that way ] and they are a robust, mature, time seasoned system.
But.
I do NOT trust the poodle cartridge to stop some of the dangerous critters I may run into here in BC [ and yes, I've read most of the wound/ ballistic literature ... and I've even shot three deer {legally}with .223 soft point ammo.] Which is why I built mine in .300 Whisper.
I DID trust the ORIGINAL AR 10 rifles ... with good mags, I NEVER had a failure to feed or breakage or stoppage in THOUSANDS of rounds through the old TENs . And some of those rounds were sent down range at "Fast Forward". On multiple targets, with short times, the Original TEN was the fastest handling , most controllable, FULL powered rifle I ever shot. And I won lots of money at bowling gun shoots to prove it.
[;{)
Savage ...
there are only two CIVILLIANsemi auto ONLY Dutch built AR 10 rifles that I know of. One of them was known to be in Alberta.
Is the one you shot a SHORTY takedown CIVILIAN version built for the Dutch airlines [ KTM ] as a survival rifle??
IF so tell DON,
LAZ says hi
If not ... tell me more??
[;{)
there are only two CIVILLIANsemi auto ONLY Dutch built AR 10 rifles that I know of. One of them was known to be in Alberta.
Is the one you shot a SHORTY takedown CIVILIAN version built for the Dutch airlines [ KTM ] as a survival rifle??
IF so tell DON,
LAZ says hi
If not ... tell me more??
[;{)
I think new AR10's will pretty much always be relegated to target/sniper style rifles, never really meant to go the places real AR10's did. I havent heard yet of one AR10 in production today that can say that it is 100% in line with a AR15's reliability, and some people already question AR15's for reliability anyways.
I don't know why someone just doesnt make a real reproduction of an Ar10. It would be non-restricted in Canada if they did, and it would be reliable.
I don't know why someone just doesnt make a real reproduction of an Ar10. It would be non-restricted in Canada if they did, and it would be reliable.
The thing is, <if> one could get some good detailed drawings of the original semi-auto trigger mechanism and mag well of the AR-10, it <might> just pass the "variant" test and be declared non-restricted ... Of course it's just wishful thinking on my part as I have neither the funds nor the know-how to actually give it a try.
Rob,
the original owner's manuals were often included with the AR 10 rifles, and the detail drawings of the action parts were in there. The early AR 10's came with the hammer hooks still on, so all you needed was an [ easy to biuild ] sear trip lever ... just like the one shown in the picture ... a piano wire spring, and the pin [ usually included with the rifles] . These extra parts were ONLY to delay the hammer fall until the bolt was [MOSTLY] closed.
The later rifles came with the hammer hooks ground off, and the pins mysteriously missing. This, of course, made the world a MUCH safer place. Of course, "spare" hammers were available from the supplier [ who shall remain nameless ] and these came WITH the hooks.
If I remember correctly [ this was DECADES ago ], somebody got into trouble over this, lost his gun dealer's license, and the business ended up in the wife's name.
There is NO WAY any Govt Gun bureaucrat, no matter how gullible, would ever sign off on this design being "semi" auto. The trigger mechanism is dead simple, and just cries out to rock and roll. With this design, SEMI is harder to build in than the big "A".
However, that being said, see my previous post ... there is at least ONE CIVILIAN/SEMI Auto only AR-10 floating around in Canada. This one was a prototype, built for KTM as a Pilot survival rifle for trans polar flights [ the concept was a little shaky ... assuming the crew and passengers survived the crash, the weather, the rest, they felt it would be a shame for them to become Polar Bear Poop!! And , apparently, .223 just doen't have the "poop" for Polar Bears, so a .308 "survival" rifle was built.]
Would be nice to take that particular rilfe into court and have it registered as a "Semi Auto Only"... but it would probably cost you your house or more in legal fees. And they could claim it was an AR-15 Variant [ totally wrong ... the AR 15s are variants of the AR 10s ] but Order In Council would trump any court win any how.
Dream on bro ... I lust after that particular dream rifle myself!!
PS: just for giggles, I built a "set trigger" for an AR 10 one time. The change lever had Safe, Semi, Auto, and an intermediate "set" position where you could pull the trigger, and then switch the lever to Semi, where the actual weight was now about 1 lb. This was accomplished [ mostly] by milling a new face on the change lever, where the trigger could go ... mostly ... off. But not quite!
GIGGLES!!
[;{)
the original owner's manuals were often included with the AR 10 rifles, and the detail drawings of the action parts were in there. The early AR 10's came with the hammer hooks still on, so all you needed was an [ easy to biuild ] sear trip lever ... just like the one shown in the picture ... a piano wire spring, and the pin [ usually included with the rifles] . These extra parts were ONLY to delay the hammer fall until the bolt was [MOSTLY] closed.
The later rifles came with the hammer hooks ground off, and the pins mysteriously missing. This, of course, made the world a MUCH safer place. Of course, "spare" hammers were available from the supplier [ who shall remain nameless ] and these came WITH the hooks.
If I remember correctly [ this was DECADES ago ], somebody got into trouble over this, lost his gun dealer's license, and the business ended up in the wife's name.
There is NO WAY any Govt Gun bureaucrat, no matter how gullible, would ever sign off on this design being "semi" auto. The trigger mechanism is dead simple, and just cries out to rock and roll. With this design, SEMI is harder to build in than the big "A".
However, that being said, see my previous post ... there is at least ONE CIVILIAN/SEMI Auto only AR-10 floating around in Canada. This one was a prototype, built for KTM as a Pilot survival rifle for trans polar flights [ the concept was a little shaky ... assuming the crew and passengers survived the crash, the weather, the rest, they felt it would be a shame for them to become Polar Bear Poop!! And , apparently, .223 just doen't have the "poop" for Polar Bears, so a .308 "survival" rifle was built.]
Would be nice to take that particular rilfe into court and have it registered as a "Semi Auto Only"... but it would probably cost you your house or more in legal fees. And they could claim it was an AR-15 Variant [ totally wrong ... the AR 15s are variants of the AR 10s ] but Order In Council would trump any court win any how.
Dream on bro ... I lust after that particular dream rifle myself!!
PS: just for giggles, I built a "set trigger" for an AR 10 one time. The change lever had Safe, Semi, Auto, and an intermediate "set" position where you could pull the trigger, and then switch the lever to Semi, where the actual weight was now about 1 lb. This was accomplished [ mostly] by milling a new face on the change lever, where the trigger could go ... mostly ... off. But not quite!
GIGGLES!!
[;{)
Scarecrow said:Simple, they cannot be a variant of something that is a variant of them
Just like your father can't be a variant of you because you where based off of him, and not the other way around.
I understand that, I'm talking specifically about AR-10's here. If there is a non-restricted example out there, it must have an FRT #, and by extention there must be descriptions of what makes it tick somewhere in the RCMP's file so that any newly imported (or built
) "variant" of the above-mentioned non-restricted examples <should> keep the non-restricted tag.As it stands the deemed restricted status of the AR-15 is B.S. anyway,as the OIC is for M16's. Lo and behold, the first M-16 prototype was built well AFTER the AR-15's went into production. I wonder what the RCMP (Or the minister) would have to say about that one
.I may be out there, but Armalite (Eagle Arms) makes a firearm called the AR-10B, which is a remake of the original AR-10, with the charging handle on top and everything. Shouldn't it be classed as a variant of the original AR-10 and therefore be non-restricted?
I have shot and handled the Sudan model they felt really good in the hands, I remeber when SOF Magazine was just getting off the ground they handed pictures of guys with this rifle in Africa.
The other thing to they had was the threaded barrel for puttin the sonic suppresor.
The other thing to they had was the threaded barrel for puttin the sonic suppresor.
