EARLY RARE LONG BRANCH SNIPER????????? You be the judge...... PICTURE HEAVY!!!!

bros

Regular
Super GunNutz
Rating - 100%
30   0   0
The other day at our Canadian Ranger remembrance day service I discovered what "I" believe to be a very early and a very rare Long Branch sniper rifle, at least in it's current modified state.

Every rare rifle find has a story so I'll share this one and hope you enjoy it.

I have been a Ranger for about 14 yrs and we have one of the bigger patrols in 1CRPG (Canadian Ranger Patrol Group with number 1 being based out of Yellowknife) with about 33 active serving Rangers. Because of my keen interest in Lee Enfield's I'm always looking at the various ,No4 rifles that patrol members have been issued. Funny how this particular one had escaped my eyes over the years and thinking back I'm sure I noticed it but overlooked it as from a distance I could tell it was re-stocked and accurized and didn't appeal to the purist in me....was I in for a surprise! Most fellows have received their new C19 rifles now in our patrol and the Enfield's they were originally issued have been gifted to the vast majority. On special occasions such as Remembrance day services the honor guard at the ceremony will still use their "ex issued, now gifted, Enfield".

Anyhow I spotted this rifle and took some photos of it. One can see at first glace (if you have any knowledge of Enfield snipers) and see why this particular rifle caught my eye. Where the scope pads were once mounted all the tell tale signs were still very evident! This particular rifle has been in our patrol for many years. The father of the current serving Ranger was originally issued this rifle many years ago when he served in the same Ranger patrol group.

I had been talking to the father a few weeks ago and he told me that he had an extra fore stock, top handguard and a butt stock that were surplus to his needs and he wanted to give them to me. Ironically his son had them in the truck yesterday and handed them over to me just moments after I had finished photographing his rifle and told me that his father had told him that this was the original wood taken off his rifle before it got the new birch stock, doweled and accurized etc. When I got home I looked over the wooden furniture parts and that even further substantiated my claim that this indeed was a early, rare, 1943 37L series Long Branch sniper. The first thing I noticed was the top of the butt had the scope number stamped in. I can't for the life of me read the first digit but it seems like it's possibly a 0??? What is legible is the next two stamps which are 4-C. Next I noticed that the butt had all the signs of once having a cheekpiece installed, the screw holes were filled and (I tried hard to capture it in the photo) but in the flesh one can see much better the difference how the wood aged and the difference in darkness where the cheekpiece covered that area for years.

The serial number on the bolt is really puzzling to me. This obviously is not original but it reminds me exactly of the type of stenciling found on the late Fazakerly made No4MK2 rifles. I have also seen something similar on FTR'ed rifles that had bolts matched in service. I know the particular father/son that were issued this rifle would not have had the bolt numbered, I doubt that would have meant that much to them, far less for sure than just having an accurate Lee Enfield. The possible answer is that in our region there is an elderly gentleman that was previously hired by the DND as he was a former armorer. He repaired and accurized Ranger rifles upon request....he indeed may have lapped the bolt lugs and had this bolt renumbered if the original bolt was not with this rifle at the time it was accurized......I will investigate this further!

I doubt this rifle will be for sale, I would trade, give cash or whatever it would take but I think it will be staying with the rightful owner as I'm sure there is some sentiment attached as his Father also carried the rifle for years. At the very least I will do is I will be encouraging him to put this rifle back in it's original sniper state however expensive that should be! One thing for certain is if it's done by the best (and I know who I would send it too and who I would not) the value will not be lost and I will be emphasizing that point!

Enjoy the photos and your thoughts are appreciated!

20221111_120955_HDR_resized.jpg20221111_120911_HDR_resized.jpg20221111_120857_HDR_resized.jpg20221111_121103_HDR_resized.jpg20221111_121124_HDR_resized.jpg20221111_120949_HDR_resized.jpg20221111_121020_HDR_resized.jpg20221112_002507_HDR_resized_1.jpg20221112_002746_HDR_resized_1.jpg
 

Attachments

  • 20221111_120955_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221111_120955_HDR_resized.jpg
    43.2 KB · Views: 1,025
  • 20221111_120911_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221111_120911_HDR_resized.jpg
    39.2 KB · Views: 1,023
  • 20221111_120857_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221111_120857_HDR_resized.jpg
    38.9 KB · Views: 1,022
  • 20221111_121103_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221111_121103_HDR_resized.jpg
    42.8 KB · Views: 1,016
  • 20221111_121124_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221111_121124_HDR_resized.jpg
    35.6 KB · Views: 1,018
  • 20221111_120949_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221111_120949_HDR_resized.jpg
    42.7 KB · Views: 1,015
  • 20221111_121020_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221111_121020_HDR_resized.jpg
    41.2 KB · Views: 1,016
  • 20221112_002507_HDR_resized_1.jpg
    20221112_002507_HDR_resized_1.jpg
    44 KB · Views: 1,015
  • 20221112_002746_HDR_resized_1.jpg
    20221112_002746_HDR_resized_1.jpg
    59.1 KB · Views: 1,023
More pics

20221112_001116_HDR_resized_1.jpg20221112_002315_HDR_resized_1.jpg20221112_002328_HDR_resized_1.jpg20221112_002415_HDR_resized_1.jpg
 

Attachments

  • 20221112_001116_HDR_resized_1.jpg
    20221112_001116_HDR_resized_1.jpg
    27.2 KB · Views: 1,013
  • 20221112_002315_HDR_resized_1.jpg
    20221112_002315_HDR_resized_1.jpg
    41.2 KB · Views: 1,011
  • 20221112_002328_HDR_resized_1.jpg
    20221112_002328_HDR_resized_1.jpg
    41.3 KB · Views: 1,011
  • 20221112_002415_HDR_resized_1.jpg
    20221112_002415_HDR_resized_1.jpg
    55.5 KB · Views: 1,015
Not what I would consider an early Long Branch. Early LB to me means OL marked 1941 mk1 with no star. Fazakerly rear site so a replacement. The dowels in the side of the stock tell me th draws have been repaired. A shame it’s missing its scope and holes plugged. The electro penciled serial numbers are common. If an actual armourer did the work the numbers would be restamped.
 
Not what I would consider an early Long Branch. Early LB to me means OL marked 1941 mk1 with no star. Fazakerly rear site so a replacement. The dowels in the side of the stock tell me th draws have been repaired. A shame it’s missing its scope and holes plugged. The electro penciled serial numbers are common. If an actual armourer did the work the numbers would be restamped.

True, not an early LB in terms of standard issue No4 rifles but were strictly talking converted snipers, at least that was my intention.
 
IMHO, that rifle was never put together by a factory or armorer as a sniper.

There aren't any stamps to indicate it was purpose built as a No4 MkIT.

If that rifle were converted back to ''standard issue'' configuration, the stock would have been replaced and those holes would have been welded over, then the whole receiver or barreled unit would have been re suncorited or parked.

IMHO, someone tried to make up a clone, using one of the kits that started becoming available appx 20 years ago and still are today.

The front scope base flat hasn't been machined for truing and there isn't any sign at all of the solder that would have been used by an amory or factory when installing the bases
 
The dowels are often seen on rifles that have been set up for target competition.
No evidence that the bases were ever soldered. But apparently early LB Ts did not have soldered bases.
I suspect that the rifle was one that was worked over by a shooter.
 
Last edited:
As far as I know the Long Branch Snipers were not set up exactly as done at H&H. An expert can correct me but I don't believe the location of the front pad was machined down prior to the pad being installed. I also don't think there were characteristic "T" stamps placed on the receiver as on most (but not all) British T's. I could believe it was a genuine surplused "T" that someone figured would make a good target rifle and removed the pads. As tiriaq suggests, dowels were (are) often used to fix the action body in place in a tuned rifle. The upper pair look to be too high up to have anything to do with a draws repair (which were probably never given large transverse dowels in armourer repaired rifles). We tend to forget that "T"'s were once not all that valuable and many were reused. I've seen one former T for sale in Calgary that had the cheeks removed and was used in a one piece target stock. I've seen another at the local Museum here that had pads removed and was converted to a .22- it was standing in a WW2 display in all its abused glory.

milsurpo
 
Many of these military surplus rifles have a story to tell ; unfortunately the story is often left untold with the passage of time , and with the exchange of ownership . If only those rifles could talk , what a tale they might tell .
 
The "provenance" on this is as good as it gets. Issued to a Ranger (father) from Stores, seen use and father hands to son. There are other examples in the 36 - 38 L range that were built at SAL (Small Arms Limited) at Long Branch.1943 was first year of the program with SAL building T's and Experimentals - well documented. Having said this there's been lots of changes to the original issued LB. The furniture has been changed however the family retained the original wood (see pictures) - these were built one at a time and do not have markings that are present on other LB T's like 74L's and 90L's. Definitely no Brit markings like S51, S, TR, T that we're all so familiar with and not correct for LB T's.

Couple things that could shed more light on authenticity. 1. Measure the spacing on the holes that have been filled on the butt and there relative position to the edge of the butt socket. 2. Hole spacing on the scope pads. 3. Are the scope pad holes filled with lead? I don't see a presence of solder and that a very good sign of originality for an early LB T.

Could be restored - bolt, rear sight, pads, scope mount, REL scope etc. Parts are hard to find and pricey however if mine I'd do it!

Ron
 
Last edited:
rgg-7, you don't see it here much any more but the biggest rumor spread among folks who had a father/grandfather serving in WWII, was them bringing home the rifle they were issued.

I know the Rangers were allowed to keep their issue firearms and were given written permission to do so.

Without provenance, the OP's story is just that, a rumor.

I've seen Ranger issued EAL rifles, complete with Weaver scopes. Never owned one, but did own one that was drilled and tapped for the Weaver base. Looked to be original ???????

It's entirely possible that the OP's rifle was an original Ranger issue but, the people who maintained those rifles, would not make such alterations IMHO. They would just have requisitioned a rifle from Depot or if they did attempt to build up that rifle into a sniper version, from parts in the bins, they would have done the job properly.

IMHO, that job wasn't done properly.
 
We have gave the rifle a run over but I do see a big plus here. OP has some original Long Branch wood that would make a good start on a LB rebuild. I started with a butt stock and now I have an OL 1941 and enough wood and bands to finish a second. Rifle wasn’t what you wished but maybe you will do something with the wood.
 
The wood may be original Long Branch, but the bedding dowels are a bit of an offset.

Other than in match rifles, I've never seen an ''issue'' No4 with bedding dowels.

But, as we all know, never say never when it comes to surplus firearms. Many things were done to keep the rifles in service, depending on which country used them last.
 
The "provenance" on this is as good as it gets. Issued to a Ranger (father) from Stores, seen use and father hands to son. There are other examples in the 36 - 38 L range that were built at SAL (Small Arms Limited) at Long Branch.1943 was first year of the program with SAL building T's and Experimentals - well documented. Having said this there's been lots of changes to the original issued LB. The furniture has been changed however the family retained the original wood (see pictures) - these were built one at a time and do not have markings that are present on other LB T's like 74L's and 90L's. Definitely no Brit markings like S51, S, TR, T that we're all so familiar with and not correct for LB T's.

Couple things that could shed more light on authenticity. 1. Measure the spacing on the holes that have been filled on the butt and there relative position to the edge of the butt socket. 2. Hole spacing on the scope pads. 3. Are the scope pad holes filled with lead? I don't see a presence of solder and that a very good sign of originality for an early LB T.

Could be restored - bolt, rear sight, pads, scope mount, REL scope etc. Parts are hard to find and pricey however if mine I'd do it!

Ron

Hi Ron

Yes, thanks for setting the record straight.....we know early LB snipers didn't follow the normal pattern of the later ones. This was evident as well in conversions done by H&H across the pond as well....for instance my "42 Savage that was a H&H conversion has the "S51" on the butt, a smaller T (than the later ones) on the receiver wall but no "TR" on the butt socket and no "S" on the mag cuttoff block.

The centre to centre distance from the scope mounting hole on the rear pad to the middle screw hole where the front pad sat (measured with a Mitutoyo vernier) is approx 3.600"........checked against my Savage as it was readily accessible, it's the same!

When looking into the holes (from the inside of the receiver) that protrude thru, there is no evidence of solder.

When I was given the butt stock and saw the evidence of the former scope number stamped into the top of the butt and the fact that the father passed that on to me with the instructions that indeed that was the original furniture from that rifle that really solidified things for me. "It's like common, really" how many Long Branch sniper butts are floating around and then one comes out of the same house that the rifle in question did!
 
I was able to examine the rifle more closely tonight.

It still has it's '43 dated barrel.

No "England" stamp on breech.

I included a few more photos and a clearer one of the left side of the receiver wall.

20221113_210721_HDR_resized.jpg20221113_212132_HDR_resized.jpg20221113_210358_HDR_resized.jpg20221113_211110_HDR_resized.jpg20221113_210632_HDR_resized.jpg
 

Attachments

  • 20221113_210721_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221113_210721_HDR_resized.jpg
    43.3 KB · Views: 320
  • 20221113_212132_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221113_212132_HDR_resized.jpg
    28.7 KB · Views: 319
  • 20221113_210358_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221113_210358_HDR_resized.jpg
    33.1 KB · Views: 318
  • 20221113_211110_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221113_211110_HDR_resized.jpg
    24.3 KB · Views: 322
  • 20221113_210632_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221113_210632_HDR_resized.jpg
    31.8 KB · Views: 318
I've seen all kinds of No 4's issued to Rangers and it's mostly impossible to know where they were sourced from. I've seen rifles that have been accurized with the middle bedding block and dowels (similar to the one in the photo) and rifles where the wrist was ground in order to remove old serial numbers I'm assuming. British made, Canadian made, No 4mk 1's, No 4 mk 1*'s, No 4 mk 2's, you name it, they were in inventory. I never saw any Pakistani made No 4's but I wouldn't be surprised if a few made it into the inventory especially when it was getting hard to find parts.

Rangers weren't allowed to make modifications, but a lot of Rangers weren't great at following rules , especially in the early days (so I've been told).
 
Pete - Is barrel 5 groove?are the scope pad holes "lead filled? - sure look like it! Were you able to track down conveyance paperwork when this rifle was "gifted" to the Ranger? Need a skill set to drill and tap the T pad dimensions and I see the front has been clearanced for a scope pad. - kept the info coming. I'm leaning toward "legit". Ron
 
The front hasn't been clearanced for a scope pad and if you look at the back filler screws, you can see they've been "cold blued"

I've built a couple of clone No 4 sniper rifles and that one certainly looks like a clone to me.
 
Pete - Is barrel 5 groove?are the scope pad holes "lead filled? - sure look like it! Were you able to track down conveyance paperwork when this rifle was "gifted" to the Ranger? Need a skill set to drill and tap the T pad dimensions and I see the front has been clearanced for a scope pad. - kept the info coming. I'm leaning toward "legit". Ron

I have no doubt about it's legitimacy. there are only a couple of authorities on the subject of Enfield snipers and they say it's kosher!

As a side note, the father who first was issued the rifle had it restocked. I found that out tonight.

5 groove barrel.....

Not lead, scratched and they are hard also tried magnet....stuck like it should to metal! Not welded as some have suggested, it appears screws were put in again after removing the pads cut close and then filed. Circumference of holes remains to well defined for them having been welded as some have suggested. The one picture is taken from the inside of receiver...I am aware that normally those screws would be basically flush with the inside of the receiver.

close -up pictures to show you!

I contacted him to get his gifting paperwork if he doesn't have it already.

20221114_220747_HDR_resized.jpg 20221114_220708_HDR_resized.jpg20221114_220017_HDR_resized.jpg
 

Attachments

  • 20221114_220747_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221114_220747_HDR_resized.jpg
    46 KB · Views: 241
  • 20221114_220708_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221114_220708_HDR_resized.jpg
    35.4 KB · Views: 241
  • 20221114_220017_HDR_resized.jpg
    20221114_220017_HDR_resized.jpg
    28.1 KB · Views: 241
Back
Top Bottom