Yesterday I was at the Truro NS gun show and as I was looking around I came across a Lee Enfield .303, smooth bore, bolt action, shotgun. The person running the booth didn't seem to talkative when I inquired about this rare firearm. Has anyone ever heard of such a thing ?
Enfield .303 Shotgun ?
- Thread starter grabbers
- Start date
There were many SMLEs converted to smoothbore in India. Used a .303 based .410 cartridge. Many of these were later reamed to accept standard .410 shells, to make it easier to get ammunition, after the guns had been sold surplus.
It was also common for rifles to be smoothbored in Britain to allow collectors to hold them on shotgun certificates.
What you saw may have been one of these.
It was also common for rifles to be smoothbored in Britain to allow collectors to hold them on shotgun certificates.
What you saw may have been one of these.
Lee-Enfield MUSKET, is what they were called.
They were an SMLE bored out to a .410 and used with a straightened-out .303 case loaded with a .410" Ball and a light charge of shotgun powder.
Originally an Army type, they found great use in the Indian Prison Service.
MOST have conversion dates on the LEFT side of the Butt Socket.
Many have been reworked (chamber reamed and longer bolt-head installed) for use as cheap .410 Shotguns.
Generally they are badly beaten-up and over-used, but they are a LOT of fun to play with. I shoot mine with 10 grains of Unique and a .36 round-shot in a .410 plastic wad. Go 8 grains and you can use TWO Balls; they strike pretty much to point of aim at 80 yards, fairly close together. Doubl-tap on a 9mm but it only costs you 1 primer!
Chances are that that is what you were looking at. They are NOT common.
They were an SMLE bored out to a .410 and used with a straightened-out .303 case loaded with a .410" Ball and a light charge of shotgun powder.
Originally an Army type, they found great use in the Indian Prison Service.
MOST have conversion dates on the LEFT side of the Butt Socket.
Many have been reworked (chamber reamed and longer bolt-head installed) for use as cheap .410 Shotguns.
Generally they are badly beaten-up and over-used, but they are a LOT of fun to play with. I shoot mine with 10 grains of Unique and a .36 round-shot in a .410 plastic wad. Go 8 grains and you can use TWO Balls; they strike pretty much to point of aim at 80 yards, fairly close together. Doubl-tap on a 9mm but it only costs you 1 primer!
Chances are that that is what you were looking at. They are NOT common.
Mine is either a 1914 Enfield or a 1946 Ishapore, depending on which side of the gun you look at.
It started off as an SMLE Mark III, served through TWO World Wars and then was Converted.
Full Conversion consisted of pinning the rear sight for a single range, filling in the Magazine space in the Forestock, welding in a scoop-shaped Loading Platform into the bolt race-way to outfit it for single-shot use.
Hope this helps.
It started off as an SMLE Mark III, served through TWO World Wars and then was Converted.
Full Conversion consisted of pinning the rear sight for a single range, filling in the Magazine space in the Forestock, welding in a scoop-shaped Loading Platform into the bolt race-way to outfit it for single-shot use.
Hope this helps.
- Location
- West Quebec
One would wonder how it found it's way to Canada.. interesting piece
Was it on the left wall about half way down. If that's the one he received it from an estate and wouldn't really know much about it.
I have two of them in my collection, and a third rifle converted to .410. Its in like new condition and marked .410 but converted back to 303.
The receiver is only marked on the left side of the socket under the safety.
The markings are No1 MkIII* but a line was lined out along with the letters FR and 43. The 410 is not touched.
I have two of them in my collection, and a third rifle converted to .410. Its in like new condition and marked .410 but converted back to 303.
The receiver is only marked on the left side of the socket under the safety.
The markings are No1 MkIII* but a line was lined out along with the letters FR and 43. The 410 is not touched.
No1 MkIII*
FR 43
<410>
FR 43
<410>
Last edited:
Nifty guns, indeed! I have one of each - a .410 3", and a 2 1/2". The 3" wouldn't fire reliably until I found a bolt with a longer head. As smellie says, great fun. I have a supply of 444 Marlin brass, which will work, as well as .410 hulls, and a box of brass 2 1/2". I poured a few .395 WW balls. I have yet to fire the 2 1/2" one. The fellow I bought it from sent a supply of blown out .303 brass. Winter project!!
Mine started off as a 1913 LSA Mk I** IP and was converted to .410 musket at Ishapore in 1935. Sadly the chamber was recut to 3in when it was surplused.
Track of the Wolf sells hand cast .410 lead balls and ships them to Canada.
Track of the Wolf sells hand cast .410 lead balls and ships them to Canada.
Thats the one. Interesting info here guys! Much appreciated.
Talked to him too he did not seem to sure about it.
I just picked one up 2 weeks ago 
I haven't had a chance to make up some loads but I did get a chance to fire-form 50 pieces of 303 brass. it was pretty easy I just annealed the brass and as smellie stated, continued to load 10 grains of Unique, then topped it off with cornmeal and a bit of wood glue, let harden over night and was able to get 48 straight-walled 410 brass. I am going to try some #9 shot with a cardboard wad. Try my hand at a little single shot skeet Never shot at a low or high house with a Lee Enfield before haha
I will try to post some pics too
Cheers
Joe
I haven't had a chance to make up some loads but I did get a chance to fire-form 50 pieces of 303 brass. it was pretty easy I just annealed the brass and as smellie stated, continued to load 10 grains of Unique, then topped it off with cornmeal and a bit of wood glue, let harden over night and was able to get 48 straight-walled 410 brass. I am going to try some #9 shot with a cardboard wad. Try my hand at a little single shot skeet Never shot at a low or high house with a Lee Enfield before hahaI will try to post some pics too
Cheers
Joe
I've read that the caliber .410 was chosen because it was essentially unavailable to civilians in India at the time, and the logic was that would make them useless to use against government forces should they somehow fall into the wrong hands. That region of the world isn't exactly known for its political and social stability.
Straight through, no choke.
They were designed for use as proper Muskets: smoothbore military shoulder firearms firing a single Ball. As such, they were the Last Musket to see military service anywhere in the world.
Originally they were an offshoot of the I.P. (India Pattern) single-shot Lee-Enfild rifles, which were regular rifles converted to single-shot and issued for 2 purposes: (1) to native troops regarded as unreliable in battle, and (2) for standing guard duty at the gate of an encampment. If the rifle fell into hostile hands (or was taken via a blow to the sentry's head with a blunt instrument), all the enemy would get would be a single-shot and a handful of rounds.
The Musket went this road a step farther by offering the enemy merely a 40-yard weapon with very little powr and miserable accuracy. As a sentry piece, though, it would make noise enough to summon a flying squad of a dozen men, each with 9 in the mag and one up the spout. In addition, the ammunition was controlled AT SOURCE (the factory) because NOTHING else used a straight .303 case.... and the people most likly to steal the gun did not have an ammunition factory at their disposal. It worked: sentry assaults for the purpose of gathering weapons fell off drastically, the gunmakers up in Darra became busy little beavers and the army was happy.
But the Indian Prison Service recognised the fact that a low-velocity round Ball is much less lethal in a riot situation. After all, if you have people screaming at you, 40 deep, you only want to incapacitate the ringleaders, not kill the first dozen ranks. And for this, the Musket was eminently suited.
A small quantity of Muskets came to Canada about 25 years go and were gobbled up pretty quickly. Far too many were butchered immediately into minimal .410 shotguns and sold on the open market, reblued and slicked-up just a bit but still recognisable for what they really were.
A few, I am afraid the minority, remained unaltered and made it into private gun collections to the great exultation of Milsurp addicts. Many of these were NOT in the best condition, the butchers apparantly having hd first pick. I have $54 invested in mine and, believe me, for the condition it was FAR too much! But I own a copy of the Last Musket..... and it's a Lee-Enfield, so I am happy with the sad old thing and it has a special place in my collection.
A lot of fun to shoot, though, and a wonderful chunk of History.
They were designed for use as proper Muskets: smoothbore military shoulder firearms firing a single Ball. As such, they were the Last Musket to see military service anywhere in the world.
Originally they were an offshoot of the I.P. (India Pattern) single-shot Lee-Enfild rifles, which were regular rifles converted to single-shot and issued for 2 purposes: (1) to native troops regarded as unreliable in battle, and (2) for standing guard duty at the gate of an encampment. If the rifle fell into hostile hands (or was taken via a blow to the sentry's head with a blunt instrument), all the enemy would get would be a single-shot and a handful of rounds.
The Musket went this road a step farther by offering the enemy merely a 40-yard weapon with very little powr and miserable accuracy. As a sentry piece, though, it would make noise enough to summon a flying squad of a dozen men, each with 9 in the mag and one up the spout. In addition, the ammunition was controlled AT SOURCE (the factory) because NOTHING else used a straight .303 case.... and the people most likly to steal the gun did not have an ammunition factory at their disposal. It worked: sentry assaults for the purpose of gathering weapons fell off drastically, the gunmakers up in Darra became busy little beavers and the army was happy.
But the Indian Prison Service recognised the fact that a low-velocity round Ball is much less lethal in a riot situation. After all, if you have people screaming at you, 40 deep, you only want to incapacitate the ringleaders, not kill the first dozen ranks. And for this, the Musket was eminently suited.
A small quantity of Muskets came to Canada about 25 years go and were gobbled up pretty quickly. Far too many were butchered immediately into minimal .410 shotguns and sold on the open market, reblued and slicked-up just a bit but still recognisable for what they really were.
A few, I am afraid the minority, remained unaltered and made it into private gun collections to the great exultation of Milsurp addicts. Many of these were NOT in the best condition, the butchers apparantly having hd first pick. I have $54 invested in mine and, believe me, for the condition it was FAR too much! But I own a copy of the Last Musket..... and it's a Lee-Enfield, so I am happy with the sad old thing and it has a special place in my collection.
A lot of fun to shoot, though, and a wonderful chunk of History.
- Location
- Winnipeg,Man.
i have a .410 enfield musket also. mine stamped 410 on barrel and action and elecro pencilled .410 ..2 1/2 " on right wrist ring. i do not know when it was converted but a great uncle was issued his when he was a guard at an internment camp so he said. Fun to shoot and many rabbits and chickens have fallen to its glory.
Musket round was a .303 casing which was UNFINISHED. Cordite .303 ammunition was made as straight-drawn (and headed, turned and primed) brass. The Cordite was inserted in a bundle, then the casing was tapered and necked, Wad inserted and the Bullet seated and crimped in place. Th .303 casing is max 2.222" long and has a Rim which is .059 - .063" thick. You need a very complete ammunition factory to make it.
Commercial .410" shotgun ammunition uses a composite (brass-and-paper or brass-and-plastic) casing. It is of a slightly-greater DIAMETER than a .303 casing..... and it is LONGER. Its Rim thickness is about .040".
The Muskets were chambered for this 2.222" casing and headspaced for the .063" Rim.
If a civilian got his hands on some army ammunition, he would find the casings LOOSE in his shotgun and the Rims TOO THICK to allow his gun to close.
Conversely, trying civilian ammunition in a Musket would give you a situation in which a quarter- to three-quarters of an inch of cartridge would protrude out the back end of the Chamber, preventing the action from closing. But likely you could not get it INTO the Musket chamber in the first place because its diameter was too great. And IF you managed to cram it in (don't ask me how!!) you would have gun/cartridge combination with far too much headspace even to assure ignition.
By using unfinished .303" casings as the basis for their cartridge, the Government, which owned the only ammunition factory, gave itself an absolute monopoly on the use of the Muskets.
There were Ball, multi-ball and shot loads made for the 2.222" Musket cartridge, but NONE was ever sold to civilians.
It was an elegant solution and it worked very well. And it required NO special new tooling to make: they just made double use of what they already had!
If you need proof, ask any serious cartridge collector: Musket rounds are slightly more common than turkey-teeth..... but not much.
Muskets which were converted for use as shotguns had the chambers reamed to the greater diameter AND greater depth required by the .410" shotshell. Most (I hope) would have had longer bolt-heads installed to keep headspace within sane limits.
Commercial .410" shotgun ammunition uses a composite (brass-and-paper or brass-and-plastic) casing. It is of a slightly-greater DIAMETER than a .303 casing..... and it is LONGER. Its Rim thickness is about .040".
The Muskets were chambered for this 2.222" casing and headspaced for the .063" Rim.
If a civilian got his hands on some army ammunition, he would find the casings LOOSE in his shotgun and the Rims TOO THICK to allow his gun to close.
Conversely, trying civilian ammunition in a Musket would give you a situation in which a quarter- to three-quarters of an inch of cartridge would protrude out the back end of the Chamber, preventing the action from closing. But likely you could not get it INTO the Musket chamber in the first place because its diameter was too great. And IF you managed to cram it in (don't ask me how!!) you would have gun/cartridge combination with far too much headspace even to assure ignition.
By using unfinished .303" casings as the basis for their cartridge, the Government, which owned the only ammunition factory, gave itself an absolute monopoly on the use of the Muskets.
There were Ball, multi-ball and shot loads made for the 2.222" Musket cartridge, but NONE was ever sold to civilians.
It was an elegant solution and it worked very well. And it required NO special new tooling to make: they just made double use of what they already had!
If you need proof, ask any serious cartridge collector: Musket rounds are slightly more common than turkey-teeth..... but not much.
Muskets which were converted for use as shotguns had the chambers reamed to the greater diameter AND greater depth required by the .410" shotshell. Most (I hope) would have had longer bolt-heads installed to keep headspace within sane limits.
