Enfield identification marks and issued Serial no's during Great War.

RememberTheSomme

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I was wondering if anyone could reveal any information on Rifles issued to the 1st NFLD Reg't during the Great War. In particular serial numbers and how if any acceptance or Dominion stamps like Canada's C Broad Arrow on them to identify ownership by NFLD. I Also on demobilization in 1919, what happened to most of the rifles, where were they returned to stores etc.

Any info would be appreciated, this thread was spawned by another member placing a WTB ad for a NFLD issued rifle, and it generated my curiosity as to if my 1916 SMLE could possibly have seen NFLD service adding a considerable bonus to my already proud ownership of a treasured piece of history.

Regards RTS
 
I have often wondered about this, myself. Serial numbers alone would be of limited value, as Lee Enfield serial numbers often duplicated, at least on the SMLE's. For example, every maker used its own serial numbers, so you could have, say, "M 96143", built by both BSA and LSA, and the maker was not recorded in the official records. Enfield started over after every 9,999 so you may find several rifles with the same serial number, as they went through the entire alphabet several times during the Great War. You would need more than the serial number records to confirm the identity.
 
If I remember correctly, Canada did not individually mark SMLEs it received during WW1, only post WW1. The Canadian regiments were considered to be part of the British forces during WW1 as well.
 
I too think they would have received SMLEs once in England, perhaps in France before being sent forward.

Given the past two years of war, they likely would have been given any SMLEs that were in working order, regardless of make or year but this is my guess.
 
They may have received brand new ones, as I seem to recall that the Brits put new rifles into reserve stores to be issued to newly formed units, reserves, etc. Like during the Boer War, where the first soldiers to arrive in S.A. had Lee Metfords, as the new production Lee Enfields were being held in reserve. I am almost surprised that the Newfies even got SMLE`s, as so many units in the Dardenelles got CLLE`s.
 
The Royal Newfoundland Regiment would have been considered a British unit, would they not - Newfoundland was still a British Colony (and a rich one) at the time, definitely not part of Canada. I would think they were issued whatever the British were issuing, a C Broadarrow LE would probably not be issued to them. Just a guess.
 
Actually, at the time Newfoundland was rich enough to have bought it's own LE's - many wealthy businessmen contributed to regiments at that time, and there were an inordinate number of wealthy people in Newfoundland in 1914. It's possible that 'commercial' production Lee's were issued. Maybe Smellie will be along with the straight dope.
 
Newfoundland had NO military organisation at all prior to the outbreak of the Great War. The island had a garrison of the Royal Coast Artillery for the guns overlooking St. John's harbour and it had the Royal Navy present in the form of HMS BRITON, formerly HMS Calypso, an Auxiliary Screw Corvette of some 2400 tons. The ship was composite-built (oak over iron) in 1884, 3-masted, square-rigged with iron masts and 4 9-pdr guns in sponson mounts. The auxiliary power was a single steam engine venting to a central smokestack. Her wreck lies in Job's Cove, Embree, NDB, about 4 miles North of Lewisporte, 400 yards from the highway. It is manifestly unsafe to board.

Briton/Calypso was there to be a recruiting centre for the Royal Navy, but it did have a store of rifles aboard, mostly Magazine Lee-Metfords Mark II. These rifles were leftovers from the Boer War and some of them were commercially-manufactured rifles which had ended up in the military supply chain. Mine is marked as a Lee-Speed, as are several other rifles which can be traced to this ship.

Training at Quidi Vidi was with these rifles from the Briton/Calypso. The First Contingent was equipped with Short Lee-Enfield rifles in England, prior to going to The Front. The Briton/Calypso rifles were left in Newfoundland to train following troops. Surviving rifles are pretty-much worn-out as they exist today.

Short Lee-Enfield rifles issued to the Newfoundland Regiment were identified by the letters NFLD (all caps) on the Butt Marking Discs.

Following the March Into Cologne in 1919, the (now-Royal) Newfoundland Regiment turned their rifles in to regular British Army stores. They would have been rebuilt through the normal FTR process, fitted with blank Butt Marking Discs and held in store until the next time they were needed.

A FEW Newfoundland rifles "disappeared" into private hands in the immediate post-war period. I knew a man who managed to disappear one himself, I held the rifle and fired it. It was a battlefield pickup, completely unaltered, which had wandered into my friend's barracks-bag ensuant upon his gifting the Armourer with a bottle of Very Nice Stuff. That was at the time the Regiment turned-in its smallarms in 1919, immediately before going Home. I have seen 4 other rifles (all sportered) in private hands with the NFLD disc and there is another (London Small Arms, 1915) which is unaltered in the little Museum in the Confederation Building.

Apart from those, they are awfully thin upon the ground.

Hope this helps.

I have written this information several times now. I REALLY wish the SEARCH were easier to use.
 
BTW, Newfoundland at that time was a self-governing Dominion in the British Empire, had been since 1837. Yes, they beat Canada to independence by 30 years!

Being that Newfoundland was a self-governing Dominion, Labrador was NEWFOUNDLAND'S COLONY.

Just keeping things straight........

Her face is to England,
Her back's to the Gulf;
Come near at your peril,
Canadian wolf!
................ The Anti-Confederation Song (Joan Morrissey)
 
Smellie thank you for your invaluable information on this subject. I again thank you for the past information you provided me via pm on the history of my LSA 1916 SMLE.


Based on your info here, I could imagine for even a moment and cherish the thought, that my LSA could have been in NFLD service through 1916- 1919, a veteran of 1st July even, and returned to stores, and then re-issued to the SAAF, formed up in 1920, as such my stock disc is stamped. As you have stated, I guess the only sure way to know is if individual soldiers had memorized or marked down their rifles serial number and by knowing their individual action records, or as you have said, it was known to go from service to stores to personal hands with NFLD disc still intact. Thanks RTS.
 
There would have been records, of course, at the time. When you were issued a rifle, you signed for it by Serial Number; it then was "your property" and you were responsible for it and for its maintenance. The price to the Government was 5 pounds 6 shillings Sterling (5.30 pounds in decimal, there being 20 shillings in a Pound) and an ounce Troy weight of Gold was worth 5 pounds. They might have been "only" a $26.50 rifle, but that $26.50 was worth about $2000 in our grossly-inflated "money" of today. The rifle represented a serious chunk of wealth and so it was tracked carefully.

A combat situation was something else. Each Company would have had a small number of spare rifles at Company HQ, there would have been more at Battalion HQ. Actual combat would have generated more spare rifles from pickups as men went down and, as rifles were damaged, wrecks would be lost or turned in to unwounded men who would receive a rifle which likely was in better shape than they were. My friend Jack Snow lost a rifle at Monchy-le-Preueux, but it was written off as "lost in action"...... and so was Jack: he was carried as "Killed in Action" and his body not recovered because Fritz had counterattacked and held the ground well beyond the area where Jack had been "killed". Jack was found, a year later, in a POW camp in Ostpreussen, after a visit by the ICRC Inspector, repatriated as far as England immediately following the Armistice, reintegrated into the (now-Royal) Newfoundland Regiment and issued another rifle for the March Into The Rhineland. His original rifle was carried as "lost in action", he turned in his SECOND issued rifle at Demob...... and brought home the "spare" rifle which was obviously "his" (he discovered it at Demob on one of the Armourer's racks, paid the Armourer to remove the Butt for him so that it would slide nicely into his barracks-bag). This was the "NFLD"-marked rifle which I held and shot; it still had blood inside the wood.

But you can bet your bottom loonie that all of that incredible mountain of paper-work would have been filed away, kept for a while and then it would have been discovered that the file space was necessary and so the paper would have gone to the recycler or to the incinerator. Apart from records which might exist within the Archives of individual Regiments, it is all gone today.

And we are still trying to figure out where it all went.

BTW it has been pointed out that Newfoundland was, in some circles at last, very wealthy at that time. This is very true. But the COUNTRY had no ministry of Defence or War or anything like that until well after the Somme began. Up until that point, the entire War Effort was carried by a PRIVATE organisation, the Patriotic Committee. After the Government took over the War effort th Patriotic Committee continued in being, providing financial relief and other support to the families of the men who were serving..... or who never would be coming home.

The Great War was utterly devastating to Newfoundland. A tiny country in population, it provided manpower far out of proportion to its size.... and took casualties which were utterly shocking in number. The original idea was to send a single Battalion: about 850 men. In the end, Newfoundland war casualties added up to 1570 KIA and 2314 wounded including some 200-odd in the RN and Merchant Navy. The War was hard on the tiny fishing-villages from which most of the EM had come, far harder still on the educated upper classes which provided most of the Officers; the wealthy and influential Ayers mercantile family of St. John's was nearly wiped out by the War.

When it was all over, the rest of the world started building monuments to the fallen, but Newfoundland did not. Certainly, there is a small Lion for Newfoundland facing Buckingham Palace at the great monument in London, but England paid for half of it because Newfoundland could not afford to. The Newfies went home and decided that there had to be a Better Way so, instad of building monuments, they built...... a University. Memorial University of Newfoundland IS the monument to the Great War. It is both a fine Monument and a fine University (its medical school alone is world-class). But that was their big monument. There are little ones as well, but not like in the rest of the country.

BTW, Newfoundland DID have its own rifles in the Great War. My friend Jack (you can find his story in older copies of The Legion magazine, written by John E. Snow) told me that he saw one in the big window at Ayers' store in St. John's in 1914. It was lying on a bed of red velvet with a huge Union Jack above it, a sign beside it explaining that THIS was the rifle selected by the Patriotic Committee to arm the Newfoundland Regiment. It was the finest, most accurate rifle in the WORLD and they cost a whopping $28 each..... and, if you wanted to help the War Effort, you could make your own donation in the store. Newfoundland ordered 500 of these rifles but the First Contingent had to join the Canadian convoy overseas and so the Florizel sailed before the new rifles were delivered; the Newfoundland Regiment went overseas unarmed. The 500 Newfoundland rifles sailed by a fast ship a few days afterwards, got to England, and were "taken into store" by the British and the Newfoundlanders issued Short Magazine Lee-Enfield rifles from British stores. So the Newfies never got the fine new rifles for which the Committee had paid so much; their whereabouts today are unknown.

Yes, the fine new Newfoundland rifle on the red velvet was..... a Mark III ROSS RIFLE!
 
Priceless info Smellie.

One of those Ross's would make a fine addition to your Ross family.

The event's of 14-4-17 at Monchy are to be told and remembered. Just recently received a book on the missing with no known grave, as a gift from a friend who's uncle was among the missing at Monchy. They were from Harbour Buffet P.B., long since re-settled. Very very few communities untouched by the Great War, my Grandfathers hometown of around 900 at time had nearly 20 young men who served overseas 1914-18. RTS
 
Jack told me that the detachment he was with went up THROUGH the town, well past the Main Square, before Fritz counterattacked.

While advancing, they came under attack by a Jerry sniper who was firing very fast TWO-ROUND strings. "Just bang-bang, like that," is how Jack described it. It was too slow for a machine-gun but MUCH too fast to be a bolt rifle of any type. Jack and a buddy took the Jerry out and started forward..... and that was when Fritz started heaving in the HE. Jack never did get a look at the Jerry rifle and wondered until his dying day what it was.

Finally an HE came too close, Jack was knocked out by blast. He came-to with a 98 Mauser muzzle next to his head and somebody kicking him gently in the ribs and saying, "Hande hoch, Tommy!"

By that time Fritz was in possession of the main part of the town once again and Jack was "in the bag".

Jack wrote about his experiences a couple of times; his articles are well worth reading. He spent 4 months walking through the Russian Civil War at on point. I used to try to do something special for Memorial Day (July 1) and for Armistice (November 11) and Jack helped me tremendously as he recreated in detail the day he was "killed" and the day the War ended, when he was working on the Gutzeit estate near Heilsburg in East Prussia. My story was called "The Kommandant Wanted Cigarettes" and was in The Pilot (Lewisporte, Nfld) in the edition closest to Armistice either 1979 or 1980. It was a good birthday present for a good friend; Jack's birthday was November 10. Jack was at the Dardanelles but missed the Big Push, was with the Regiment again for Guedecourt, Sailly-Saillisel and Monchy-le-Preux.
 
Jack told me that the detachment he was with went up THROUGH the town, well past the Main Square, before Fritz counterattacked.

While advancing, they came under attack by a Jerry sniper who was firing very fast TWO-ROUND strings. "Just bang-bang, like that," is how Jack described it. It was too slow for a machine-gun but MUCH too fast to be a bolt rifle of any type. Jack and a buddy took the Jerry out and started forward..... and that was when Fritz started heaving in the HE. Jack never did get a look at the Jerry rifle and wondered until his dying day what it was.

Finally an HE came too close, Jack was knocked out by blast. He came-to with a 98 Mauser muzzle next to his head and somebody kicking him gently in the ribs and saying, "Hande hoch, Tommy!"

By that time Fritz was in possession of the main part of the town once again and Jack was "in the bag".

Jack wrote about his experiences a couple of times; his articles are well worth reading. He spent 4 months walking through the Russian Civil War at on point. I used to try to do something special for Memorial Day (July 1) and for Armistice (November 11) and Jack helped me tremendously as he recreated in detail the day he was "killed" and the day the War ended, when he was working on the Gutzeit estate near Heilsburg in East Prussia. My story was called "The Kommandant Wanted Cigarettes" and was in The Pilot (Lewisporte, Nfld) in the edition closest to Armistice either 1979 or 1980. It was a good birthday present for a good friend; Jack's birthday was November 10. Jack was at the Dardanelles but missed the Big Push, was with the Regiment again for Guedecourt, Sailly-Saillisel and Monchy-le-Preux.

do you have a place online we can access these articles? it would be great to read them
 
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