Enfield Restoration Question?

mildcustom2

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I was just looking for thoughts and advice on restoring some of my original enfields and some of my sporterized models. I know theres alot of experienced people on here who could offer alot of help.

How would it affect the value of my original Enfields if I had them re-blued?

How would it affect the value of my original Enfields if I had the wood refinished?

How would it affect the value of my sporterized Enfields if I had them re-blued and is it worth it?

How would it affect the value of my sporterized enfields if I had the wood rfinished and is it worth it?

What would be the best way to refinish the wood as I have never done anything like that before?

I am also looking for some No4 Mk1 10 shot mags and some No4 Mk1 sporterized 5 shot mags ( parker hale, globe etc..... )

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanx

Sean
 
On the original rifles, it is not a good idea to restore them. a re bluing and a refinished stock can cut the value in half. the only thing that you should do is just do a coating of boiled linseed oil. As for the sporters, restoration can increase the value. the best way to refinish wood is to rub then down with very fine steel wool and rub some BLO into them.
 
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I was just looking for thoughts and advice on restoring some of my original enfields and some of my sporterized models. I know theres alot of experienced people on here who could offer alot of help.

How would it affect the value of my original Enfields if I had them re-blued?

How would it affect the value of my original Enfields if I had the wood refinished?
Kiss the value good by. An original rifle is only original as long as it hasn’t been altered or modified.
How would it affect the value of my sporterized Enfields if I had them re-blued and is it worth it?

How would it affect the value of my sporterized enfields if I had the wood rfinished and is it worth it?
In this case the rifles have already been modified. Bubba to your harts content. You may want to consider restoring any rifles you have with uncut, non-drilled and tapped metal work.

What would be the best way to refinish the wood as I have never done anything like that before?
Look for the many fine posts by CGN member louthepou on this very topic.
I am also looking for some No4 Mk1 10 shot mags and some No4 Mk1 sporterized 5 shot mags ( parker hale, globe etc..... )

Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanx

Sean
Keep an eye on the Parts section of the EE
 
Good topic for debate

Good questions and I am sure that you will get a wide range of answers.

My response to all of your questions would be - it depends.

Depends on what you have and where you are.

In the Uk for as long as firearms have been around, it has been quite acceptable to have a firearm refinished just as you would have your car repainted. I'm talking about some high end sporting arms here.

In North America, there seems to be this fixation of collecting mint condition or as close to mint as possible. Yes very nice, but is like looking for a holy grail at times. Talk to a hardcore Garrand collector and you will understand.

With myself, I am into collecting older military arms, focusing on British and Commonwealth. Yes, I do have a couple of minty rifles that have obviously sat in a rack for most of their life, and I have some that look like they have been used as a cricket bat!

I got into milsurps as it used to be an affordable hobby. Every pay day I would be at the gun shop to brouse the surplus rifles, many complete with bayonet. Out the door with ammo for under a hundred bucks. That wasn't too many years ago either. I tried to buy one of everything and accumalated a pile of them. I shot all of them, used a few for hunting and eventualy settled down and focused on my favourites, the Lee Enfields.

These milsurps were often arsenal refinished and were in pretty good shape. The refinishing was part of their military service life, so some would consider that to be original, some would not.

As for effecting value, consider this example. I had a $60 beater of a Carcano carbine with rust and faded metal finish, beat wood and a bent sight. I replaced the sight, sanded the wood smooth and reblued the metal. The thing now looks pretty. Is this now worth only $30? I think not, probably worth big bucks now, maybe as much as $100.

Another example (theoretical). A vintage Holland and Holland side by side shotgun circa 1900. Faded finish and flaking shellac on the stock. I reblue the metal with cold blue from Cambodian Tire and sand the stock smooth and varnish it. Value before I refinished about $5000, value after about $2000.
Now, if had shipped it back over to HH in England and had them refinish it, value would be up around $10000.

So it depends on what you have to start with. My general rule is; shooter or collector. If a rifle is for shooting then form follows function. It is a tool to get a job done. Paint the frinking thing pink if you think it will help you bag a deer. With a shooter I have no hesitation in changing sights, stocks or whatever it needs. A collectable rifle is different.

With the old rifles that I find at country auctions, pawn shops, gun stores, newspaper classifieds, most are pretty beat. In fact at gunshows, I notice my buddies are attraqcted to the pretty rifles whereas I look at the old beaters covered in military inspector stamps. I can read a rifle like a book and tell you a story about where it has been and perhaps who used it and what action it might have seen. These are the ones that hold interest to me, not the safe queens.

So with new to me rifles, the ones that are complete I basicaly leave well alone. I strip and clean them, check for problems and then reassemble. I may change small parts if it would make them function but otherwise I leave them alone. Metal gets cleaned by soaking in varsol to soften the crud then I go at it with a tooth brush. Rust is tackled with the end of a brass cartridge case and then extra fine steel wool and gun oil. faded finish stays that way. Nothing wrong with honest wear in my eyes. The woodwork would also get a gentle cleaning with fine steel wool and linseed oil to freshen it up, but I would leave the patina alone. This would not effect value, in fact it might even increase it a bit as it is now clean and functional.

Bubba'd rifles. Zero collector value. Most are worth more stripped down and each part sold individualy. So I consider anything fair game when working on one. I will change stocks, replace barrels, weld up scope mount holes, refinish metal, might even spray paint it. What I end up with is a parts gun, nothing more. Value? Approaching the value of an original? No where near, but I am happy with it, I have a gun that can often outperform a rifle worth ten time as much.

So my rule of thumb, if it is rare or collectable, clean it leave it alone. At time that can be very difficult to do. Each bump and ding tells a story, so if in doubt, leave it alone that day, put it back on the rack and look at it another time. If it is a sporter, work on it and build what you want. It won't have value as a collectable but would have value to somebody who wants a rifle that shoots well, which is what rifles are supposed to do.

There, that is my tuppence worth. Hope it helps.
 
Another Brit chiming in and my view is:

with something that has been sporterised then make whatever changes you like. Virtually nothing you can do will negatively impact value. My preference would be to see a restoration to a close approximation of military issue but it is your rifle so you choose;

with respect to something that has not been sporterised, my view differs from many on the board. I take the position that since virtually 100% of old milsurps have been reconditioned or repaired throughout their service a careful further reconditioning does not affect value. These are not unspoiled virgins and so a re-blueing or cleaning simply restores a piece to former glory. I like to see restoration of wood keep cartouche marks and stamps intact, but a cleaning and reoiling does not, in my view, cross into the land of Bubba.

Most importantly, you should enjoy what you own. Take them to the range, display if appropriate, and take pleasure in the ownership experience.
 
Well, from below the border;)
Cleaning a grotty stock and steaming out the dents, followed by the boiled linseed oil treatment is not a sin.
Gently removing the rust from metal surfaces is OK as well
If the metal is painted and the paint is chipping off or has runs, (common to Ishapores) redoing the paint is acceptable or touching up the Suncorite (Note, I said touching up Suncorite, like scratches or chips.) HOWEVER rebluing a military firearm is not
The reason against rebluing being that markings are blurred and if not done properly often screw holes are elongated.

Again a high dollar shotgun will have value decreased by rebluing unless done by a competent professional.
Modern Sporting rifles? go for it!
 
Thanks for all the info everyone. I really appreciate the feedback. I think I will leave most of my original Enfields as they are other than some really good cleaning and lubrication.

However I thought I would just give my opinion about sporterized ( bubba'd ) Enfields. In my opinion in the years to come as the hobby becomes more and more popular and less and less original Enfields are available the price and desire to collect and purchase sporterized models will go through the roof. I personaly really like them and buy atleast 2 sporterized models and 1 original Enfield a month. Ummmm yeah I am addicted. Definitely 100% Canadian Gun Nut.

Just my opinion and I guess the future will tell.

Thanx

Sean
 
Milsurp infields and mausers are getting to be quite collectible. Whether or not they will stay that way is another story. All it will take to make them less desirable is for a huge influx of either pristine or refurb rifles to be taken out of storage and released onto the markets. Witness the Russian SKS45 rifles of recent sale. The word out there is that there were 190,000 of them offered up on the surplus market to distributors. There are also rumors of hundreds more coming in. This will most certainly drop the value of Russian SKS rifles short term and also affect their desirability as collectors. A good example of this was the influx of Swede mausers in the late 70s to early 80s. They could be bought at $20/rifle and ammo was almost impossible to find. Up to that point, there were very few M38, M41,M42 or M96 rifles around and they commanded a premium price as they were proven performers. Many years previously, the Finns sold off a few and the Swedes sold off their carbines. Another example is the Mosin Nagant series, they were starting to get a little pricey and more desirable as they started to disappear in the gun turn in amnesties ( I saw over a hundred of them in poor or fair condition laying on the storage room floor of the local police station on that first amnesty many years ago) As cheap ammo dried up, prices dropped and many were just left to rot away. Look at what's happening now with Mosins, the same thing, lots of them saturating the market and ammo drying up has decreased the price on them by 25%. People are burning them up with what's left of the surplus ammo and not cleaning them further decreasing their numbers and eventually, maybe another 10 years these grand old rifles that are so rich in history will achieve their proper status.

Once International Firearms started dumping the first shiploads onto the markets, many were as new with targets in a little plastic bag in the barrel, we were literally awash in Swedish rifles and kit. It took about 10 years for the rifles to be a great collectible. Some of us, of course saved them any way. Thousands were sporterised, some well and some not. Now we're gettin the dregs of the Swede mausers on the markets and the prices are still going up. The "Tradex" CG63 rifles I've seen are nice, but they're definitly not new or in the great shape of the original imports.

Now I've noticed, people are looking for stocks and metal to refurb their sporters back to issue configuration. A decent stock set will bring $125 if it's VG+ and more if it's pristine. I've even noticed rifles at a few gun shows that had been drilled and tapped for scopes, then had the holes filled and refinished. Sometimes so well it was hard to distinguish under the low levels of light at most gun shows. I now carry my own bore light so I can examine the receiver much closer.

As the rifles become more scarce, the values go up and condition becomes less important as long as the parts are correct. Lets face it there are very few milsurps around that haven't gone through a refurb at one time or another.

Witness the the Indian, Pakistani, Turkish and middle eastern examples. Many of the older and more recent imports were refurbed to the last straw. They ran out of parts and it was left up to the techs and common soldier to improvise and adapt to keep the rifles in service. I like to keep a few of these around just to remind me of what is issue spec in some parts of the world and keep the snob appeal in check.

Many of the western country troopies would polish the wooden stocks on their rifles as a testament of pride and respect. Many rifles were polished for prade purposes. Again witness the Lee Enfields, Springfields, Mausers, P series Enfields, Krags etc. Many of them were left as is but enough of them were so loved that the individual troopies would rub the stocks with cardboard to make them smoother etc. I'm sure it drove the techs crazy but they left them as is in many cases. Are these rifles BUBBA? Not in my opinion nor in the opinion of many others.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Many of those mismatched, restored rifles are indistinguishable from factory refurbs and unless the individual makes some sort of attempt to permanently identify it as such, virtually undetectable. Who is to say what's correct? Many nations mixed and matched different series of the same model firearms parts. Are these rifles still correct? Yes, most definitly.
 
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Bearhunter, well said old boy!

I am one who at the time never thought that those $20 rifles would become collectable.

I can remember when Century Arms pulled out of Canada and they had a clearance sale of SMLEs 'fair, cracked stock' for $19.95

Wish I had bought a bunch, but no crystal ball at that time.

It would be wise to buy one of each kind while we still can do it relatively cheaply. The market being flooded does hurt collector value sometimes but it doesn't take long to bounce back. I think that milsurp collecting is more popular than it has ever been. More collectors, greater demand, limited supply.
 
"...sporterized models..." Usually, but not always, have bad headspace. Even matching numbers gives no gurantee that the bolt hade hasn't been changed at some time. A lot of bubba'd rifles were assembled out of parts bins with zero QC too. If you're going to play with 'em, buy a set of headspace guages. Brownell's sells Forster guages at $27.40US each. You really only need the No-Go and a Field. A Go is used when installing another barrel.
A bubba'd rifle will never have the value of a full stocked rifle. Mind you, prices of bubba'd rifles have gone way up too.
 
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