Enfield troubles

diopter

diopter

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Posted in the Bullseye mail list forum.

"So I bought this SMLE sporter. Yeah I didn't mean to but jumped on an auction before I read the whole ad that said "sporterized". It is in quite nice condition for a "sporter."

I'm using Wolf 174 gr 303 brit ammo. Bullets were entering the target sideways at 100yd. Close inspection showed a slight muff near the muzzle so I had it recrowned. Cleaned the bore very well with an electronic "Foul Out" system. It did remove a bit of copper fouling. With my caliper I get bullet diameter of .310 from the wolf ammo. The bore diameter of the rifle is .308 Groove diameter unknown.

I must say this one has me stumped. The rifling appears strong but does not have sharp corners between lands and grooves. If I were to try other ammo, should I go with a lighter faster bullet or a heavier slower bullet? Anyone else had this issue crop up with a 303 brit? Thoughts? Dig up a copy of Hatchers notebook and tell me what the idea rate of twist is and bullet weight for the .303. Thanks

Option "B" I have a really nice classic sporterized SMLE, wonderful wood, light handling, with the soft brass butt plate (do reduce recoil, wink) Make offer....

R. Dan Pauley"

Besides flat based .312 bullets, any other suggestions?
 
Nope - flat based .312's, or even BT .312's should fix his problem. If not, then maybe he didn't do a good enuogh job re-crowning. Tumbling bullets can't be caused by much else.
 
Years ago I had a P-14 that dd the same, even after a full recrowning. Bore showed some wear, most noticeably pitting in the grooves, but the rifling was distinct. (Its difficult to tell with 303's, as they can display pitting, but be relatively low mileage bores, and shoot well.)
Your bore is oversize. If the 0.312 bullets dont grab, I understand that you can get large ones from Steve R at 303 British. Having said that, if the bore is high mileage, it may not shoot well even if it can manage to spin the bullets.
 
I would try Remington or Winchester 180 grain round nose factory ammunition, both have a flat base and a long bearing surface to grip the rifling.

Boat tail bullets do not like being shot in barrels with throat erosion, and boat tail bullets because of the base design do not enlarge and fill the bore when fired in a worn bore. (any type rifle military or commercial) New barrels or barrels that have fired a minimum amount of cordite ammunition will shoot boat tail bullets accurately.

Below explains that barrels that have fired cordite Mk.7 flat base ammunition will become inaccurate sooner when boat tail Mk.8Z ammunition is fired in them.

Mk8z.jpg


Img023.jpg


Please note that Mk.8Z ammunition uses a rebated boat tail design. (superior gas seal) ;)

boattail.jpg



In worn bores I have very good luck shooting .312 Hornady 174 grain round bullets when reloading as these bullets have more bearing surface.
 
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The thing was MADE FOR a .312 bullet.

I can get lousy accuracy out of ANY .280 Remington rifle around.

All I have to do is run .270 slugs in the thing.

He is doing exactly the same thing: the .310 slug is for the 7.62x54R.... and even THEY run better on a .312.

BTW, how was he able to determine bore diameter on a barrel with an odd number of lands and grooves? Plug gauge is the only way.
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Enfield sporter

What is the date on the right side of the butt socket? It is possible that it could be a Lee-Metford and not a Lee-Enfield. The Lee-Metford had a rounded type of rifling, and the Enfield type sharp rifling was introduced when Cordite powder started being used.

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smellie said:
BTW, how was he able to determine bore diameter on a barrel with an odd number of lands and grooves? Plug gauge is the only way.
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Click to expand...

Maybe it's a 2 groove bbl?

You can get a reasonable approximation with a lead bore slug by rotating it in calipers, but it's not as precise as a gauge.
 
"...Groove diameter unknown..." That's the important part. Slug the barrel. Lee-Enfield barrels can measure from .311" to .315" and still be considered ok. A larger than .311" won't shoot .310" bullets well. Check the headspace too.
"...Tumbling bullets can't be caused by much else..." Keyholing is caused by an undersized bullet or over sized barrel. .310" is under size.
 
smellie said:
The thing was MADE FOR a .312 bullet.
I can get lousy accuracy out of ANY .280 Remington rifle around.

All I have to do is run .270 slugs in the thing.

He is doing exactly the same thing: the .310 slug is for the 7.62x54R.... and even THEY run better on a .312.

BTW, how was he able to determine bore diameter on a barrel with an odd number of lands and grooves? Plug gauge is the only way.
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Click to expand...

Actually Lee Enfeilds were manufactured with 2,4 and 5 lands and grooves. Depends on when and who made the barrel.
And you can slug the bore, then wrap a piece of shim stock around the slug (subtracting double th shims thickness from the total) to measure an odd numbered rifle grooved barrel.
 
Is it better to reload .312 boat tail or FB for the enfield?

bigedp51 said:
I would try Remington or Winchester 180 grain round nose factory ammunition, both have a flat base and a long bearing surface to grip the rifling.

Boat tail bullets do not like being shot in barrels with throat erosion, and boat tail bullets because of the base design do not enlarge and fill the bore when fired in a worn bore. (any type rifle military or commercial) New barrels or barrels that have fired a minimum amount of cordite ammunition will shoot boat tail bullets accurately.

Below explains that barrels that have fired cordite Mk.7 flat base ammunition will become inaccurate sooner when boat tail Mk.8Z ammunition is fired in them.

Mk8z.jpg


Img023.jpg


Please note that Mk.8Z ammunition uses a rebated boat tail design. (superior gas seal) ;)

boattail.jpg



In worn bores I have very good luck shooting .312 Hornady 174 grain round bullets when reloading as these bullets have more bearing surface.
Click to expand...
 
@ciphery: you forgot the 6-groove barrels made by Savage and Long Branch.

Who made the 4-groove critters?

But those are all Number 4 tubes; the man is talking about an SMLE and they were ALL 5-groove Enfield rifling, unless somebody has slipped one in there that I am not aware of. Enfield DID experiment with other rifling patterns, including a 3-groove like the Swiss, but NONE of them were ever released and the only existing specimens are in the Pattern Room collection.

Easiest way to determine bore diameter at the muzzle with a proper Enfield barrel (5 lands, 5 grooves, deep grooves), given that you don't have factory gaugs (I have) is to rotate a slug in the muzzle and mike the polished ring around the slug. Quick and easy if your mike is working right.

BTW, Metfords were 7 grooves.

But the SMLE was 5.
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"In worn bores I have very good luck shooting .312 Hornady 174 grain round bullets when reloading as these bullets have more bearing surface."


My experience, too.

Twist has nothing to do with the problem.

You could aslo try some unsized cast lead bullets.
 
Zdragunov said:
Is it better to reload .312 boat tail or FB for the enfield?
Click to expand...

The Enfield rifle used flat base bullets and any rifle that has fired cordite ammunition is more accurate if flat base bullets are continued to be used.

Exception: if you have a new barrel or slightly used barrel, that fired cordite ammunition with little to no erosion, then boat tail bullets can be used.

Exception No.2, barrel/bore wear is the determining factor, example I bought a 1000 pulled Russian .310 boat tail bullets with steel cores and these are only used for case forming because of bad accuracy and yawing in worn bores. These bullets when kicked in the tail (fired) do not enlarge to fill the bore diameter)

Bottom line if your Enfield doesn't shoot well with the .312 Hornady round nose then I would try cast bullets and see how thy shoot. The closest bullet to Mk.7 ammunition would be the 180 grain Sierra that would follow your rear Mk.1 range markings and it is a flat base bullet. (meaning "why" shoot boat tail bullets at all, especially in a worn Enfield barrel with military iron sights)

Question, I'm a little brain dead today and can not remember the proper word for the bullet filling the bore when fired. Can anyone supply this correct word, its really bugging me that I'm having a senior moment. :redface: Thank you
 
@diopter: great (what's the reverse of an acronym, anyway?) But it's great: that's exactly what it does.

I have had excellent results using the Sierra Pro-Hunter 180. This is a soft-point hunting bullet, but it does fill in for the Mark VII very well. I shoot it with 37 grains of 4895 for an MV of about 2250. I seat it to the OAL of a Mark VII Ball round. Yes, due to the slightly differing OGIVE of the Sierra bullet, this does crowd the leade just a bit, but the rifles seem to like it. Pressures are relatively low, as compared o factory stuff and, in a good rifle, this load can shoot under point-five MOA. I am actually getting this point-five MOA from an Aussie 1918 rifle and the load shoots exactly an inch at 100 from an absolutely-untouched 1918 National. I won't tell you what it does in a Ross because you'll call me a d*mn liar. Yes, this is a .311" bullet, but it does obturate very nicely.

Another bullet I have had good results with is the Hornady flat-base .312" 150 Spire Point, seated so the cannelure shows, over 40 grains of 4064. This is a warmer load but also very accurate, especially in the P-'14 rifle.

Note, kindly, that in each case the bullet is the cheapest in its class.

REMINGTON and WINCHESTER also make flatbase .303 slugs and neither of their jackets are very hard. This is what you want for best obturation: a soft bullet. Perhaps someone will have these in bulk form. I would not hesitate to try either one.

Hope this helps.
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