English Sporting Rifle (the saga continues)

Steppenwolf

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Well something arrived in the post for me today. I think it is an English Sporting Rifle with an additional smooth shotgun barrel. Here are some photos, it doesn't look that rusty in person. I believe I will be able to shoot it, after a trip to the black powder Doctor of course. The lockplate is marked NOCK, but I can't read the rifled barrel top. The smooth bore has "LONDON" on top. 69 cal.30" swamped rifle barrel., 69 cal 30" smooth bore barrel with one wedding band, the furniture is iron and silver. It has two ramrods, 1 wooden shotgun and a steel rifle ramrod. The only real wood damage is above the lockplate and beside the trigger guard. It has damage to the front of the hammer and the shotgun bead is missing. It will need a barrel key and new nipples. I rang the barrels and they ring true. Has anyone seen any thing like this? A guess at it's age?

SW

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SW
Neat gun there is nothing like a good english stalking rifle
What are the proof marks on the bottom of the barrels, are they London or Birminghams. Just guessing I would put the gun in the late 1850 to early 60's
In one of my books they show a Sammel Nock 43 Regent Circus 1850-52 and then116 Jermyn Street from 1853 to 62 London
John
 
Great find - a really interesting restoration project. Should respond nicely to TLC. This must have been a cased set.
 
I have a picy of the proof marks. I disassembled the rifle today. It is very well made, every piece has engraving, and everything is threaded, no pins. Surpised that I managed to remove one of the nipples. The lock is beautiful, still see the case hardening colour. All the inside metal pieces are blued. The BP Doctor is going to instruct me in the art of barrel redemption. I tried to clean a small patch on the bottom of the barrel using Naval Jelly with no success. Super fine steel wool worked on a small patch, but I think it would remove the sharpe edges on the flats if I used this method.

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Kevin
 
Kevin
The proof marks don't match any of the english marks I have seen unless they are pre 1813 proof from the Birmingham area, I will do some more looking in my books to see if I can see something along those lines, I would think that the center mark is the barrel makers mark?.
I have used a cloth soaked with Hoppes #9 rubbed on the barrel then a thin brass plate to scrape the barrels before to remove rust and had good luck with that with out removing any of the orginal finsh
John
 
For the sake of the gun, put away the steel wool! Use a eletrolsis (sp?) system to remove all the rust without mechanically wearing away a the gun itself. Google and ye shall see. Just need a 12 volt battery chager a plastic tray big enough to hold the parts, a baking soda solution and a sacrific bit of steel and you can completely restore/remove rust without stuffing the value or patina. Nice item you have there, I was valuing a deceased estate and a later Nock pistol was in the selection, sold for $8000 NZ.
Cheers Frank
 
SW, the black powder proofs are very similar to Birmingham marks from the period 1813 to 1904. They differ from those marks in a couple of small details though. Some research is in order. I have no idea what the centre marking is. The rifle barrel looks like it could read "Tipping". There were two brothers, Thomas and Richard Tipping, who ran separate shops in Birmingham between 1820 - 1877 (1842? for Richard). Does it look like it could be "Tipping" to you, the photo makes it difficult to be sure.

Sharptail
 
Sharptail,
I tried to get a clear photo but it didn't work. Under an oblique light it does look like "Tipping".

NZFrank,
Welcome fellow gunnut to our family, nice to have a rep from down under.
I will not use steel wool. I want to be careful with this rifle. The electrolysis sound interesting, I will do some research before I attempt to clean the barrel surface.

Thanks all,
Kevin

Here is an easier to view photo of the proof marks.
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Sharptail said:
SW, the black powder proofs are very similar to Birmingham marks from the period 1813 to 1904. They differ from those marks in a couple of small details though. Some research is in order. I have no idea what the centre marking is. The rifle barrel looks like it could read "Tipping". There were two brothers, Thomas and Richard Tipping, who ran separate shops in Birmingham between 1820 - 1877 (1842? for Richard). Does it look like it could be "Tipping" to you, the photo makes it difficult to be sure.

Sharptail
 
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"For the sake of the gun, put away the steel wool! Use a eletrolsis (sp?) system to remove all the rust without mechanically wearing away a the gun itself. Google and ye shall see. Just need a 12 volt battery chager"

This raises the age old question of should you refinish or not. Personally I see nothing wrong with a major refinishing of an english gun; I believe the barrels particularly were refinished frequently during their working life. If the damascus pattern is still 50% present, I would hesitate to alter it, but if the metal has a general coating of rust, I see nothing wrong and a lot of improvement with draw filing and re etching the pattern.
To put it in more understandable terms; do you refasten the rib on a double shotgun, if it has separated, do you replace a mashed up nipple or repair a lock? Ultimately do you put the gun on the wall and never shoot it or do you bring it back to something of its original glory and shoot it?
My personal preference is a functional shooter rather than a rusty museum specimen.

cheers mooncoon
 
OK, I am going to go out on a limb here. Firstly, I believe that the marks on your barrel are Birmingham proof marks. With confidence, I will state that the gun was made prior to 1856. If it were made in 1856 or later, it would have a "crown over scripted BP" Birmingham provisional proof mark.

The "crossed swords with crown over V" is a Brummie inspection mark, and the "crossed swords with a crown over BPC" is the Birmingham definitive proof. These marks differ from others I have seen in minute ways - the ends of the crossed swords should be a curve and not a loop, and the crown on the definitive proof mark should be closed at the top. However, these small differences do not detract from the fact that no other proof marks (from London, Belgium, or any other country) even remotely resemble the Birmingham marks. Perhaps those details changed when the provisional proof mark was implemented.

Since the Birmingham Proof House was established in 1813, the marks cannot predate that era.

I should point out that Douglas Tate's book "Birmingham Gunmakers" contains a copy of an ad warning consumers about counterfeit proof marks. The ad is dated 1854. The proof marks in question were faked London marks, however, and if you were going to falsify proof marks, why would you choose Birmingham? I believe the proof marks on your gun are genuine. If they are fake they would be very valuable.

The look and general design of your gun suggest to me that it was built in the second quarter of the 19th century. The shape of the lock and the hammer have changed from the flintlock era, as has the flash guard. Much earlier than 1825 and those features would still resemble a flintlock gun.

So, we have Birmingham marks, can't be older than 1813. The lack of the provisional proof mark means the gun predates 1856. Then we have Thomas Tipping, gunmaker in Birmingham from 1820 to 1877. The readable markings on the top of your rifle barrel do look like Tipp... and a search of the IGC's database shows only Tipping as possible gunmakers names starting with those letters.

None of this could be described as scientific proof, but it is pretty compelling evidence. Here are the notes from the Internet Gun Club regarding Mr. Tipping:

Thomas Tipping established his business in 1820 in Legge Street, Birmingham; in 1827 he moved to 40 Constitution Hill. Between 1835 and 1837 he retired or died.
It would appear that Thomas Tipping had a daughter (perhaps his niece) who married a Lawden. When Thomas retired or died, his firm was taken over by his grandsons (or nephews) Caleb and Thomas Tipping Lawden.

In 1837 Caleb and Thomas opened a shop in Cheapside, London. In 1842 the shop moved to 18 Pancras Lane, and in 1843 to 9 Dyers Buildings, Holborn. In 1844 it moved to 20 Bartlett's Buildings, and in 1851 it moved to 26 Bartlett's Buildings.

In 1852 the factory in Birmingham was enlarged to occupy 41 as well as 40 Constitution Hill

In 1854 the London shop moved yet again, to 17 Woodstock Street.

In 1860 the firm took on additional premises at 18 Buckingham Street.

On 13 February 1861 Lawden and T Jones registered patent no. 368 for a percussion and pin-fire breech-loader mechanism.

On 31 May 1862 Lawden patented a drop-down barrel breech-loader and a cane gun.

The firm were known for the four barrelled rim-fire pocket pistol (patent no. 207 of 22 January) which they made from 1860 under licence from C Sharps & Co of Philadelphia, USA. They also made rim-fire rifled carbines under Sharp's patent no. ???.

Percussion revolvers were made for Deane & Son of London under William Harding's patent No.669 of 29 March 1858 and 1159 of 24 May 1858, these carried an "L" suffix to their serial numbers, and centre-fire self-extracting revolvers for J Thomas under his patent no.779 of 13 March 1869.

The firm was taken over by P Webley & Son in 1877. The London shop may have stayed open up to 1888 when Webley opened at 60 Queen Victoria Street.

Richard Tipping of Great Hampton Street, Birmingham may have been Thomas Tipping's brother.


Congratulations on your find. Please heed the advice of others and do not take steel wool to it. Restore it and shoot it, but please do not damage it.

Are there any proof marks on the shotgun barrel?

Sharptail
 
> Please heed the advice of others and do not take steel wool to it. Restore it >and shoot it, but please do not damage it.

I guess I just cannot see what is wrong with taking a rusty barrel with the writing illegible and converting it to plain and legible writing plus a finish like the one below.
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cheers mooncoon
 
Mooncoon, LOL, there is nothing wrong with that finish! Beautiful job. But I am equally sure that you have seen barrels rubbed clean of patina by enthusiastic "restorers". Playing with 100 year old finishes requires some knowledge (as if I have to tell you) and many have learned the hard way. One hopes to avoid expensive lessons.

Sharptail
 
My point is that the patina on the barrel illustrated was rubbed clean with a draw file then refinished. Steppenwolf's rifle is also damascus with no remnants of any original finish left to the point where the maker's name (Tipping and Lawden, London and Birmingham) was more or less illegible until after a good scrub with steel wool. My own feeling is that after striking and browning it would look nearly as good as the Lancaster barrel above and several times better than at present. I think it is a gun with potential.

cheers Doug
 
Thanks SharpeTail, great information. So it would appear that this rifle dates from between 1837 and 1856. I haven't started the smooth barrel yet, but both barrels have the same proof marks.

I have cleaned most of the gunk for the stock using some 0000 steel wool and olive oil, I took this rifle to Mooncoon and he suggested I draw file the barrel. I bought a file tried a small square on the underside of the barrel and stopped. I could not continue, the file was to aggressive for my inexperience and I didn't want to damage the barrel. I cleaned a fair bit of the rust from the barrel using Naval jelly and a square of green scrubbie the size of my finger tip, it took hours. You can see the damascus lines now and most of the engraving. Mooncoon turned a new nipple and repaired the mouth of the hammer. I made a barrel key myself. I have no intentions for repairing the stock, the damage above the lock happened along time ago. I am thinking about shooting it, maybe 40 grains of powder. I will post my progress as I continue this work. Thanks Mooncoon.

Thanks
Kevin
 
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Steppenwolf, I am glad you realize your limitations with the draw file. It sounds like the restoration is proceeding in an appropriate manner. We need to see some pics as the project progresses, please. As Mooncoon says, this is a gun with potential. I wonder where it has been and what it has done in its 150 plus years of existence?

Mooncoon, you are a talented individual. Kudos to you for sharing your expertise on this one. You'll have to give us a tutorial on draw - filing one day, or at least share some more photos of your work!

Sharptail
 
Sharptail said:
Mooncoon, or at least share some more photos of your work!
Sharptail

My abilities are rathe modest even compared to a 19th century Belgian apprentice, however here are a few barrels I refinished. What might interest you is that on one barrel you can see a sort of smudge to the pattern and that is the weld where two skelps were joined together. On the Isaac Hollis barrels, the buggers used barrels of two different patterns to make the pair.
The main thing with drawfiling is too use a new sharp file and keep it flat and clean. Use lots of cutting oil to reduce pinning and therefore scratches.

cheers mooncoon
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