Equivalent for Bullseye powder?

762mm

762mm

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Hello,

I'm fairly new to reloading and I'm looking for a powder that would be equivalent to Alliant Powders' Bullseye, which I can't get locally. The reason I need that particular powder is because I've recently acquired an antique cartridge revolver and the only reliable loading data for it that I've found uses the Bullseye smokeless powder.

I took a look at the different powder burn rates and the only one I can see that's the closest is Titegroup (by order of availability - I can probably get either Winchester, IMR or Hodgdon). It is not far after Bullseye in this particular table:

ht tp://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

*Note: I've also confirmed this with my Lyman pistol reloading manual. Titegroup is right up there along with Bullseye. I just want to make sure that there aren't other variables to consider before I go out and buy it and then use Bullseye's loading data with it... (ie. 2.8 gr for 700 fps, etc.)

Any help would be very appreciated. Thanks in advance...



P.S. Btw, before anyone brings up the use-BP-only-in-antiques point, please let me specify that my antique cartridge pistol was actually made to use smokeless powders and many people still reload for it using modern smokeless powders (it's the 1892 French service revolver). Unfortunately, not much data is available for it.
 
I use tightgroup in my 41 long colt works fine. There is bulleye data for 41 long colt as well.

However I went very light to begin with. The steel is 110 years old. Your milage can vary.
 
"...can't get locally..." Keep looking. Bullseye is commonly used by a lot of handgun shooters.
The trick will be finding brass, dies and shell holder. The dies run $78.39US, Stateside.
If you order on-line, be sure and specify 8mm Lebel revolver brass. There's an 8mm Lebel rifle round too.
However, here's some other 8mm Lebel revolver data.
http://www.members.carol.net/~on.melchar/8lrev/index.html
 
VV N310 is about as close to Alliant Bullseye as you can get.

Clean burning unlike BE. Meters well. But hard to find and expensive.

BE should be available as just about everyone uses it. Just check
around. N310 is much harder to find.
 
If you tell us what gun and calibre you have, I think you would get some loads listed for it.
There is no need to get an exact copy of Bullseye and use the same data. There are many similar powders, isn't W231 a bit slower than Bullseye?
 
Titegroup is a touch slower than Bullseye and will generally generate lower pressure for the same velocity. In an older gun, keeping pressures low should be seen as desirable. Only thing is that since slower powders may not burn as cleanly because they don't generate high pressures. Small drawback considering the added safety.

You could also try Trail Boss, it is designed to burn cleanly using light loads, and is also a bit slower than Titegroup.

And H4831 is correct, W231 is much slower than Bullseye. Also, that table you viewed at reloaders bench may not be quite accurate. It has Titegroup as being much faster than Clays, when it should be the opposite, at least in pistol cartridges.

Here is the Hodgdon burn rate chart.

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

It is interesting to note that for some older cartridges, such as 38 S&W, Hodgdon only lists loads using W231, presumably because it generates low pressures.
 
Thanks for the replies everyone, you guys are great! This is exactly why I felt safe to buy all my reloading supplies... because I knew I could find help here (please note that I've already read my reloading manual very carefully, lol!).

Since some have asked, my revolver is the 8mm Lebel French service revolver, aka 1892 French revolver.

I have already bought & received my dies & case holder from Buffalo arms and have received my brass/bullets from Tallman Industries for that particular caliber. I have approx 2000 CCI small pistol primers ready to go and a brand new Lee 50th anniversary press kit (I'm still looking for a trimmer, but don't need it for my 8mm Lebel due to the fact that the cases I bought are trimmed/new).

The real problem is the powder... There are some ridiculous shortages on powder around here, plus the local stores only carry leftovers of Hogdon and Winchester and, even under normal circumstances, they don't list any other powders (I've got 2 gun stores in total to pick from - here in the québécois socialist land, gun stores are as scarce as the Holy Grail itself). I went on the webite of another nearby store in Ontario, but they only carry Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester also. There are no Alliant Powder products whatsoever (Bullseye, Unique, Red Dot, etc)...

The only smokeless powder I was actually able to score was a scarce (lol) can of HP-38 for my .38 special.... I'm actually thinking about using that to reload my 8mm Lebel, but I'm somewhat concerned about pressures. My Lyman reloading manual shows that in many cartridges, HP-38 actually has much higher pressures than Bullseye - even though it's under Bullseye on the burn charts... ? :confused:

I'm really confused about how that whole powder burn rate thing works... and how it relates to generated pressures... :(

Thanks.

Edit: A fellow member in the Aniques forum where I posted originally regarding the same topic was kind enough to give me some HP-38 data from the Hogdon reference list (loads are for the 32-20, which is nearly identical). With that data I was able to construct a load calculator, which I've put up for your download/testing on rapidshare (max 10 downloads):

ht tp://rapidshare.com/files/250498131/Load_Calculator_-_HP-38.xls.html

(You have to enter your bullet weight/desired FPS in the "Custom Calculator" to see it in action... I have it set for 110 gr and 600 FPS, but you can put other numbers in there).

The fun thing about this calculator is that in theory it can calculate loads & pressures for any caliber, as long as you fill out the 'known data' table with known numbers - but you have to be careful not to erase the math formulas contained in other cells though! (it's a Ms Office Excel/Open Office Calc file). Let me know what you think... personally, I think this should work.. at least in theory. ;)
 
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HP-38 is the same powder as Winchester 231, just sold under a different name. As previously noted, it is much slower than Bullseye and a good powder to start with.
 
Intersting. Can you please tell us more? What theory is it based on, i.e. how did you develop the formulas?

762mm said:
Edit: A fellow member in the Aniques forum where I posted originally regarding the same topic was kind enough to give me some HP-38 data from the Hogdon reference list (loads are for the 32-20, which is nearly identical). With that data I was able to construct a load calculator, which I've put up for your download/testing on rapidshare (max 10 downloads):

ht tp://rapidshare.com/files/250498131/Load_Calculator_-_HP-38.xls.html

(You have to enter your bullet weight/desired FPS in the "Custom Calculator" to see it in action... I have it set for 110 gr and 600 FPS, but you can put other numbers in there).

The fun thing about this calculator is that in theory it can calculate loads & pressures for any caliber, as long as you fill out the 'known data' table with known numbers - but you have to be careful not to erase the math formulas contained in other cells though! (it's a Ms Office Excel/Open Office Calc file). Let me know what you think... personally, I think this should work.. at least in theory. ;)
Click to expand...
 
Andy said:
Intersting. Can you please tell us more? What theory is it based on, i.e. how did you develop the formulas?
Click to expand...

Well, it's quite simple, really... it's all math and a legacy of the statistics class I've taken recently in my university program - and aced it big time, lol (we had to use Ms Excel every step of the way). I figured that, if you use one single type of powder for the calculations, then bullet weight, powder quantity and FPS MUST be directly related - kind of like the fire triangle (can't have fire if you don't have all 3 components - heat, fuel and oxygen).

So, I basically entered all the known data in a table and did averages for each (bullet weight, FPS and powder grains - pressure was added too at this stage, but I wouldn't rely on that too much, as the averages tend to be unreliable with such big differences in numbers- ie. 9300 cup vs 22600 cup with a little powder variaton, etc).

So, in a nutshell, I decided to have the formula take into account the desired bullet weight and FPS in order to calculate, based on the averages of real data, what the theoretical amount of powder SHOULD be. Of course it is not an exact science, but if we suppose that powder amount, bullet weight and FPS are directly related to one another in the known data charts, then the calculator should give you a very good basic idea of where to start when you want to reach a target FPS in your reloads - for the same caliber and with the same powder, of course!

I plan on buying myself a chrony and measure FPS of my reloads, then develop this further - I am 100% positive that with enough 'known data' for the real 8mm Lebel (or any other caliber), this calculator can be 99.9% accurate every time.

The weak link (in its' inaccuracy) truly is insufficient data... the more know data is entered, the more accurate the averages, thus the more accurate the calculator. For now it tends to be the most accurate in the median range - at about 900 FPS or so. Try it and see for yourself, you'll know what I mean. The formulas are not hidden, so you can actually see them in Excel's formula bar.

P.S. I've built this because I've got peed off at the insufficient info on the net regarding the 8mm Lebel revolver cartridge and its' reload data. And so I've decided to take whatever little info was out there (most of it was for the 32-20 anyway) and build this. Like I said, once I have my chrony and some time to go to the range to collect tons of data, I'll make this into a very reliable calc... for now it's still in the testing stages though. The 8mm Lebel revolver round shall live again! ;)
 
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Example:

Calculator.jpg
 
762mm

You should check out QuickLoad. It is an interior ballistics program. There is a very limited demo, but it includes the User Manual in PDF. The Appendices in the back of the Manual will really give you a good eye opener into what is involved in calculating interior ballistics.

One thing you will find is that the OAL (specifically the volume in the cartridge below the bullet) makes a HUGE difference in the peak pressure.

Here is a sample output from QuickLoad. It is based on an arbitrary 115gr bullet that is 0.6" long, and a bullet OAL of 1.30" and not the Lee 205 grain listed in the table below (The Lee bullet is in the program's database, but I manually changed this Lee bullet into a 115gr but it didn't reflect in the label in the output below. I should have actually created a new bullet.)

This is just a SAMPLE based on the assumed parameters above. Shorten the OAL and pressures WILL increase, or if the bullet length is longer than my assumption, pressures will be higher.

A sensitivity analysis changing only the OAL will show huge differences in pressure for seemingly minor changes in case volume.



 
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762mm said:
The real problem is the powder... There are some ridiculous shortages on powder around here, plus the local stores only carry leftovers of Hogdon and Winchester and, even under normal circumstances, they don't list any other powders (I've got 2 gun stores in total to pick from - here in the québécois socialist land, gun stores are as scarce as the Holy Grail itself). I went on the webite of another nearby store in Ontario, but they only carry Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester also. There are no Alliant Powder products whatsoever (Bullseye, Unique, Red Dot, etc)...
Click to expand...
I suppose you've already given them a try, but I've never had any problem finding Red Dot and other major Alliant powders at Dante Sports.
 
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