Euro sporting rifle cartridge conversions - safe?

Dark Alley Dan

Dark Alley Dan

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Hey, all.

A friend of mine has an opportunity to buy a M96 Mauser chambered in 8x57. This raises a concern for me.

The C96 was chambered in cartridges like the 6.5x55 Swedish (51,000 PSI max) and the 7x57 (51,000 PSI max). Can it comfortably handle a cartridge like the 8x57 (57,000 PSI max)?

The survival of any number of fine old rifles of this combination would indicate it can and has been done for a hundred years, but as these old ladies age, it worries me some. I reckon if a guy doesn't try to make them something they aren't (like a poor man's .338 Win mag) he won't get in any trouble.

Am I being paranoid, or is this a valid concern?

Thanks for your input.

Dan
 
I assume that, in deference to the number of Old Ladies chambered for 8x57, that all the factory ammo out ther is well below max.

Safe assumption? Anyone have any pressure specs on factory ammo?
 
North American factory ammo is anemic, as is most handloading info. Husqvarna made up a pile of commercial small ring sporters in 8X57. These were essentially military-style small ring actions without the thumb cutout, inferring new production at the time. I consider these superior to the converted swede military rifles, as the actions may have been engineered to a better standard (ie metallurgy and NDT)
 
A M96 action is not as beefy as an M98, so it is not a good choice for converting to another calibre that goes beyond the 8x57's conservative factory pressure levels. If that's what he's after, he should get start with an M98.
By the way, I'm no Mauser expert, but I think you're right to question the issue.
When I find a bit of time, I'll post a detailed article on the 8x57 called 8x57mm - Underrated and underappreciated (1993 article from Canadian Hunting & Shooting) on Photobucket.
 
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Dark Alley Dan said:
I assume that, in deference to the number of Old Ladies chambered for 8x57, that all the factory ammo out ther is well below max.

Safe assumption? Anyone have any pressure specs on factory ammo?
Click to expand...

IIRC North American ammo is loaded to less than 40,000psi, whereas the European stuff is at the higher limit (RWS, Norma, Sellier & Bellot etc)
 
1899 said:
IIRC North American ammo is loaded to less than 40,000psi, whereas the European stuff is at the higher limit (RWS, Norma, Sellier & Bellot etc)
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i'd be very curious what actual pressure is on the NA stuff. i chrono'ed some and it is slower than 30WCF ammo, and this with a larger case, larger bore, and longer barrel.
 
These rifles were commercially manufactured by a major manufacturer. In Europe. Where ammunition is produced to CIP, not SAAMI, standards. They were used for hunting in Sweden.
Why would it be assumed that there is anything inherently unsafe about these rifles?
 
tiriaq said:
These rifles were commercially manufactured by a major manufacturer. In Europe. Where ammunition is produced to CIP, not SAAMI, standards. They were used for hunting in Sweden.
Why would it be assumed that there is anything inherently unsafe about these rifles?
Click to expand...

Well I have to say that I've never had a rifle fail, and I am not an expert in metalurgy nor am I an engineer. Therefore I have to consider what experts in the field have to say on the topic. For this reason I purchased The Mauser M91 through M98 Bolt Actions. A Shop Manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen.

For example he describes why you should not modify a regular M98 action for full H&H length cartridges:

mauser.jpg


As you are aware the M96 action is weaker by design than the M98. These actions are old, many of the M96s are closing in on 100 years of use. Lastly what pressures were these cartridges loaded to when the rifles were built? Were they the same as today, or were they loaded to lower pressures?
 
I have Kuhnhausen's book.
The page you posted refers to altering M98 actions to take longer cartridges, which requires cutting away steel right behind the lower locking abutment. I, too, wonder about the advisability of this conversion. I have seen standard length M98 actions which had been converted, and were seviceable. Zastava and PH made .375s in standard length actions. Perhaps a more modern commercial 98 is not quite in the same category as a converted G98 or Argentinian M1909.
When were these commercial M96 type actions made? About 100 years ago?
Are these rifles factory original, or were they gunsmith converted?
Are these 8mm Swedes bored for I or S bullets?
Are they proofed to CIP standards?
There are M96 based .30-06 rifles for sale. How were those actions adapted for the longer round?
Pre-98 Mausers do not handle gas as well as a 98.
Are they weaker? From a metallurgical standpoint, there isn't going to be much difference. How about locking abutment area?
 
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Igman s/p ammo which is loaded hotter then american offerings shoot fine without pressure signs out of my step-dads m96. I also read somewhere that that igman loading in 8mm matches north american facotry loadings for 180gr 30-06, think it may have been a chuck hawks article? Same article I believe said the north american 8mm mauser loadings match factory 30-30. Anyone back this up??
 
My question is, why bother converting to a Magnum?
As 7x57, and 8x57 are more then capable cartridges on their own.

Besides which for the gunsmith money saved one can go out and buy an off the shelf magnum rifle.
 
I agree that the Igman ammo is loaded hotter than the NA stuff. That being said, I placed two shots in to the kill zone of a moose, at 200 yards (with my BRNO 21-H 8x57), using Igman ammo, and both bullets failed to penetrate through. A good thing I had my Husky lightweight .30-06. I have quickly learned, the hard way, that this could have been avoided by moving-up 20grns in bullet size (to 200 grns), and rolling my own. That, or, getting Norma ammo.
 
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European 8mm ammuntion is made for both .318 and .323 bore rifles. The Europeans know the difference. Euro S bore (.323) ammunition is hot, I bore less so. US 8mm ammunition is one size fits all, that can be used in either bored rifle. More powerful than .30-30, but somewhat milder than European.
 
GENTALMEN I have a factory Stiga wich was made by Huskavarna wich is made of good swedish steel made on a 96 action and chambered in 9.3X62 Mauser and it does not hickup at max loads. I must state this is not a surplus action but a commercial 96 built action of good steel, therefore if you find a 96 of good enough quality you could surely load you 8X57 Mauser to SAMMI specs. This may be the only 96 actions able to hold up to 98 Mauser specs I suspect. I would like to here someone with some experience with this delema to chime in, thanks thats my 2 cents Dale in T-Bay:confused:
 
zywina said:
GENTALMEN I have a factory Stiga wich was made by Huskavarna wich is made of good swedish steel made on a 96 action and chambered in 9.3X62 Mauser and it does not hickup at max loads. I must state this is not a surplus action but a commercial 96 built action of good steel, therefore if you find a 96 of good enough quality you could surely load you 8X57 Mauser to SAMMI specs. This may be the only 96 actions able to hold up to 98 Mauser specs I suspect. I would like to here someone with some experience with this delema to chime in, thanks thats my 2 cents Dale in T-Bay:confused:
Click to expand...

Remember that the 9.3x62 was initially loaded to 2150fps with a 285gr bullet, which is FAR weaker than the 2400-2500fps of today's loadings. You can push an action and everything will be fine until it fails (if it fails).

I don't know, but because I don't know I'd rather error on the side of caution.
 
1899 said:
Well I have to say that I've never had a rifle fail, and I am not an expert in metalurgy nor am I an engineer. Therefore I have to consider what experts in the field have to say on the topic. For this reason I purchased The Mauser M91 through M98 Bolt Actions. A Shop Manual by Jerry Kuhnhausen.


mauser.jpg
Click to expand...

I believe the pre-64 M-70's in 300H&H and 375H&H were modified the same way?
 
Husqvarna DID manufacture the model M/648 in 8X57JS on both the M/94 AND the M98.
Now, there are plenty of ways a manufacturer can make sure the pressure will not rise over the action design point. One is to use longer engaging cones, another way is to use an oversize (not much over 0.001") bores.
If any of you have a small ring M/98 (like the Brno 21H), check the engaging lenght and you'll be surprised to see how long the cone is (say, compared to a Husqvarna built M/648 on a FN M/98 action).
Also, Husqvarna only used the 8X57JS in it's "solid wall" or "commercial M/94 (or, M/38).

The real point with these actions is not the strenght, it's it's capacity to handle escaping gases.
Just remember that Husqvarna and Brno made M/98 style actions on small rings, just the same as the M/94 was built.

Personally, I would'nt be scared to shoot any Husqvarna factory made rifle 8X57JS on a M/94/M/648. I use a brush gun M/649 (9.3X62) with my best relaod without any issue.

A bubba'd M/94/96 would be a different story, though.
 
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