Experiment for 30-30 Win

[Potashminer]

Last summer, I sold off most all my bullet casting stuff - is many bullets here that are cast, but not sized or lubed for 303 British, so I kept a .314" and .311" Lee bullet "push through" sizing die. My thought was to just buy other size/weight cast bullets as I wanted some.

On CGN, I just got some bullets - seller's ad said they were cast from Lyman 311008 mould, sized to .313" and tumble lubed in ALOX - I presume that was Lee Liquid Alox - intended as light weight 115 grain plinking bullets for 303 British. The bullets seem to have like a waxy or "varnish" type layer on them.

On the drive home from Post Office where I picked them up - I got wondering if I could make them work for my 1955 Win 94 in 30-30. A local guy and I had loaded up a small batch of 110 grain half jacket Speer Varmint - .308" - seems to feed through just fine. Speer 110 grain bullet beside cast 115 grain bullet:



I ran two of those .313" bullets through the .311" sizer - about no effort to do so, but I could feel a small drag as they went through. Then I took two new 30-30 cases from a Blue Label W-W bag and ran them into a Lyman "31 Long" "M" die - I think that die made mostly for 303 British, but with the punch screwed mostly all the way down, it seemed fine for making a cup at mouth of the 30-30 cases. I seated the bullets to the top of the upper lube groove. Then into a Lee Factory Crimp Die - that seemed to roll the very end of the case mouths into that lube groove.



I single loaded one into chamber of that 1955 rifle - bolt closed fine - then extracted that one and loaded both into the magazine - both fed, chambered and extracted fine. I notice this morning there is a shiny ring just near where the lower edge of that upper lube groove would be - so maybe needs just a touch more squeeze with the FCD?



So, next part of that will be to find a suitable powder loading - not expecting much - if I can hit a 4 litre milk jug at 50 metres, with the iron sights, would be fine with me. An acquaintance asked if that would work for a 7.62x39 - not finding a whole lot written about reloading that cartridge with soft point or cast bullets for bolt action rifle - I see the nominal bullet size often given as .310" - so I am thinking these ones sized to .311" might work fine - today or tomorrow's project to see.

 

[Snider shooter]

What your doing should work fine. Data for 7.62x39 loads with a similar weight are in the Lyman cast manual which if needed I can send some pictures to you. I use 0.312 in my SKS and CZ carbine. Your using lighter bullets than I normally use.

 

[oldrodder]

I think your crimp is adequate since the rounds chamber and eject fine. As for powder, you can't go wrong with Unique. I would start at 8-9 grs.
Good luck with your experiment!

 

[Potashminer]

What your doing should work fine. Data for 7.62x39 loads with a similar weight are in the Lyman cast manual which if needed I can send some pictures to you. I use 0.312 in my SKS and CZ carbine. Your using lighter bullets than I normally use.

I never thought to look there!! I have Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition and found loads suggested for 115 cast in 7.62x39 Russian - a different mould, but should work; but lightest showing for 30-30 Win are 150 grain bullets - those "start loads" for AA2230 given in Western Powder #5 Manual for 110 grain and 125 grain jacketed bullets ought to give me a place to start - because I have some of that powder - is also some "odd stuff" labeled as "same as Unique" that might get pressed into service. Neither loading is important enough for me to go looking to try to buy more powder - intent is to "make do" with what I have on hand.

 

[Potashminer]

I think your crimp is adequate since the rounds chamber and eject fine. As for powder, you can't go wrong with Unique. I would start at 8-9 grs.
Good luck with your experiment!

8.0 grains of Unique is exactly the Start load given in that Lyman book, for 115 grain cast bullets in 7.62x39 Russian - 10.0 grains given as Maximum for that powder - to be seen if what I have truly acts like "Unique", in this cartridge.

 

[kamlooky]

To me, that looks like a heck of a lot of a crimp?
Ease that up a schmig and the ring may disappear.

 

[Potashminer]

You could be correct, Kamlooky - to be played with - as you suggest, too much crimp at the mouth might raise up that brass further back. I had been assuming that simply chambering was a "good thing" - I noticed those shiny rings this morning when I looked closer at what I had made yesterday - they did not "wipe off" like other marks did. And I continued to assume that the Lee Factory Crimp Die did a "flat crimp" - but apparently not when over a lube or crimping groove - "crimping" is not something that I ever do with jacketed bullets, so I doubt that I would know what a "good" or "poor" crimp looked like.

 

[yomomma]

You could be correct, Kamlooky - to be played with - as you suggest, too much crimp at the mouth might raise up that brass further back. I had been assuming that simply chambering was a "good thing" - I noticed those shiny rings this morning when I looked closer at what I had made yesterday - they did not "wipe off" like other marks did. And I continued to assume that the Lee Factory Crimp Die did a "flat crimp" - but apparently not when over a lube or crimping groove - "crimping" is not something that I ever do with jacketed bullets, so I doubt that I would know what a "good" or "poor" crimp looked like.

On that note, store bought ammo does not look that much different in regards to the crimp.

My rule of thumb ( and I use a caliper) is that you want to just crimp a little more that what it takes to remove the flare you put on to seat the bullet

 

[woodlotowner]

To me, that looks like a heck of a lot of a crimp?
Ease that up a schmig and the ring may disappear.

This ^^

 

[partial]

I think your crimp is adequate since the rounds chamber and eject fine. As for powder, you can't go wrong with Unique. I would start at 8-9 grs.
Good luck with your experiment!

I use campro 110grs .308 RN bullets over 10 grs of Unique, one of my alltime favourite loads

 

[kamlooky]

I'd be sure to check the primer on the first discharge.
See oww flat it is?

Heavy crimps duzz funny thing with pressures.
Or so they say.

Wear yer eye gawgulls.

 

[yomomma]

Front center, factory crimp

And

 

[fiddler]

On that note, store bought ammo does not look that much different in regards to the crimp.

My rule of thumb ( and I use a caliper) is that you want to just crimp a little more that what it takes to remove the flare you put on to seat the bullet

100%

I like to use a separate crimp die and I back it off completely before I start.

I also watch for a case that is left too long will have a messed up crimp. With lots of brass constantly on the go its easy to miss one in the trimming process.

 

[Al Bear]

Something’s weird with your story, Potash. Here’s why: You start with a bullet cast out of a 311008 mould, which supposedly drops a .312 diameter bullet. Then that bullet was sized (up) to .313 ? Don’t believe it. (That explains why it slid through your .311 sizer. ) I have a Lyman 313226 which drops .313 (98 grain) bullet. I size it to .309 with a Lee push through die and use that as a low pressure plinker in both a 30/30 and a 30-06. I don’t think you’re reckless using a .311 diameter bullet in a .308 bore (especially with cast bullet plinking loads) but it would be prudent to run one of your .311 sized bullets through a .309 (or .308) sizer and comparing it to the .311 before shooting the latter. My guess is a cast bullet sized to 1 thou over bore would be more accurate than one sized to 3 thou over bore. Check for excessive leading (and let us know).

 

[Potashminer]

Al Bear - sounds like good advice - and I never did measure up the bullets as received, but I will now. Is a thought I have read - Veral Smith - LBT bullets - was a proponent to do "throat packing" - so size your cast bullets to your rifle's throat, not to the groove size - apparently want the bullet as large as can be chambered - the throat and leade will swage it down as it is needed. To be seen - for sure is enough here that I will try alternatives, if this plan does not work out!!!

As far as diameter of bullet from a mould - when I did cast my own bullets, for sure I could get different "as cast" diameters, depending on the alloy that I used - if I remember correctly, pure lead tended to come out smaller diameter - as I added more tin, the bullets came out measurably larger. (or might have been the other way around, regarding the addition of the tin).

 

[jethunter]

I wouldn't worry about a cast bullet .003" over groove diameter. If you can chamber it cleanly it will be fine. .001" is the rule-of-thumb minimum oversize for a cast bullet, not a maximum.

 

[Potashminer]

A follow-up to Post #15 - just finished some measuring and weighing. As described earlier - was a bag about 9 pounds received - at 115 grains per bullet that is nearly 550 bullets - I simply picked out 5 of them at more or less random from near the top of the bag of them.

As described - they appear to be coated with waxy sort of stuff with a gold or brass sheen - was advertised as "tumble lubed" and I am sure that is what it is - might be Lee Liquid Alox or another similar product like Dragonlube used to sell - I am sure there are others. For each bullet, I measured across two diameters - so one diameter with the casting seam more or less looking at me, and one diameter across the seams. With my vernier caliper - so likely plus / minus 0.001" numbers - each bullet got 2 diameter measurements - .315 / .316, .313 / .317, .312 / .315, .314 / .314, .315 / .315. Weights were 115.8, 115.0, 116.4, 115.6 and 115.7 grains - weighed on a Hornady beam scale - has molded on top "Pacific M", so I presume is accurate plus or minus 0.01 grain. The push through sizer is stamped "Lee 311-HO" on the body - after pushing those five bullets through the same measurements were repeated - all were .311 / .312. I do not know how much time passed between casting and sizing those bullets. I do not know how much time has passed since then. I do not know when the bullets were tumble lubed before being mailed to me. But I suspect they are about perfect for what I bought them for - to be "plinking" bullets in 303 British in the "as received" form - and I believe they will also work in my 30-30 lever action and in my 7.62x39 bolt action rifle, after a trip through that .311 push-through sizer.

Visually, not all those 5 bullets were sized completely all the way around - as if the lube and a very thin skin of lead moved on some parts of those ridges on the bullet bodies. The push through die was set up in my RockChucker press, if that makes a difference in the force required to push them through - which was very little, but I could notice when the bullet was being acted on by the die, and when it had passed through.

 

[yomomma]

You're over thinking this