Extraction issues on Mod 1 Mk3 enfield

[whimmus]

Hi, all... first post here.

I recently bought an old and crusty sporterized Model 1 Mk III Enfield (1944 Lithgowe) and cleaned it up, bought an aftermarket magazine and took it out shooting.

I used S&B 180 grain FMJ ammo and found after a few shots that the extraction became difficult as the cartridges were growing roots and didn't wanna come out. I noticed some flaring (is there a better term?) near the base, but I'd seen this on better ammo from a friend's brand new -06 a couple weeks before, so it didn't worry me. But there was also some marks on the lower part of the carts and soon saw pitting inside the chamber.

I've sought advice since from a pro and been told the 180 may be a bit too hot for an older gun and the bolt, being a rear-lock, may be allowing too much flex. He suggested I try some SP 150 by the same manuf to drop the pressure. He also suggested I use a wire brush dremel bit inside the base of the chamber with some oil to smooth out the pitting... carefully, and not too much, etc. The pitting looks like its been there for a while and said pro told me it was likely a bad cartridge in the past possibly forced out improperly.

Any comments on this? Has anyone dealt with this sort of thing before?

The gun shoots rail straight and is in otherwise great condition. If I can solve the extraction issue, I'll be stoked. I dont *need* to shoot the 180 FMJ, tho its the cheapest.

Thanks in advance.

 

[BadgerDog]

Hello ...

Maybe a head space issue?

We're not reloaders, but my wife shoots nothing but S&B .303 commercial ammunition out of her Enfield collection. Of course, she only shoots it once, then we leave the brass for the reloaders in our club to use.

Her results are pretty consistent and when she's tried standard MkVII .303 Mil-surplus (Circa 1940's) that apparently these Enfields were designed to use, she sees little difference in her target groups.

The ONLY Enfields she has that are ammunition sensitive seems to be her two 1896 MLE Mk1's (Long Lees). Both seem to prefer the round nose/flat base bullet, as opposed to the "spitzer" 174gr MkVII or S&B 180gr rounds. When she uses the latter, her groups look like a shotgun blast on a 24" target at 100 yards. If she switches to round nose/flat base bullets (custom handloaded by others for her), like the original early 1900's MkII .303, her groups tighten right up.

Regards,
Badger

 

[whimmus]

Hello ...

Maybe a head space issue?

Thanks for the reply.

I was aware of the headspace issue before, but I've read more about it in the last 24 hours.

There is a bulge at the base of the cartridge, but it seems to be centered about 1/4 up from the rim. What's making the carts hard to extract is the way they expand into the pitting at the base of the chamber (wide end). It isn't very deep, but tiny 'bumps' appear on the brass surface enough to grab into the pits a bit.

The gun seems accurate with the 180s regardless. We only had .22 targets that day and didn't point the enfield at them, but we were able to hit pop cans consistently at 75 yards (the limit of the site we were at). We figured for a well used 62 year old gun with iron sights, that was pretty good.

I'll try to get the headspace checked and try some of the 150 grain rounds. I'm not sure if its a good idea to try to smooth out the chamber as I mentioned and want some other opinions first.

Cheers!

 

[David K]

... 'Could be the head space, but first, try to REALLY clean, and remove dried/baked on grease, oil and whatever else, from beneath the extractor and it's spring mechanism. The chamber may have a "coating" of dried oils etc. .... GENTLY clean it, if necessary with VERY fine steel wool wrapped around the cleaning rod. The slightly bulged base of fired rounds is normal for these rifles, and assuming head space is OK commercial ammunition of all weights can be assumed as safe. Consider, that the Military chambers, were made to accept different manufacturers ammunition and battlefield dirt and build up; they're over sized, in comparison to current commercial, thus there's a fair bit of expansion occurring and oils, grease, copper/brass and anything else, is slammed onto the chamber walls and builds up . Take care not to scratch the chamber walls as that would add to your woes ! Maybe just a really good soaking with bore cleaner will suffice ? The Lithgow rifles were made with pretty good (Wartime) materials, and a fair bit of good finishing went into them, but chambers can still be a bit rough,and the years do take their toll ! ..... Good luck and enjoy the rifle ! .... David K.

 

[BadgerDog]

There is a bulge at the base of the cartridge, but it seems to be centered about 1/4 up from the rim.

I'm not expert, but it sounds like the primers may be backing out because of head spacing. If you could post a pic of the empty case, I bet one of the sharp folks here could help a lot.

Here's a great article called Headspace 101 for .303's by Parashooter (click here)http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78341 in the "Technical Articles for Milsurp Collectors and Re-loaders" section of our MKB. Check out the pics of damaged cases, including the one showing case stretching, then compare it against what yours looks like.

Regards,
Badger

 

[whimmus]

Here's a great article called Headspace 101 for .303's by Parashooter (click here)http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78341 in the "Technical Articles for Milsurp Collectors and Re-loaders" section of our MKB...

Badger, this article was great. The shells are nowhere near 'cracking' as these indicated. I also now know what those 'relief holes' are drilled into the side of the gun.

The more I read, I think the extraction problem is due to the pitting. Either case, I'll try to post an image tonight of the cases and the pitting... maybe even an inside shot of the chamber if I can pull that off.

The chamber may have a "coating" of dried oils etc. .... GENTLY clean it, if necessary with VERY fine steel wool wrapped around the cleaning rod. The slightly bulged base of fired rounds is normal for these rifles, and assuming head space is OK commercial ammunition of all weights can be assumed as safe...

David, thanks for the reply. I'm going to try this in the next few nights. I can see what looks like oil and grime inside the lower parts of the pitting (there really isnt much, either... but enough to grab the shell casing). There may be one bit inside that's raised sightly above the chamber wall, as opposed to most of them. I was unable to verify as it was on the right side and hard to see. Time to find that damn tiny mirror I have hidden somewhere!

While shooting last weekend, I was able to mitigate the difficult extractions with putting a thin sheen of a petroleum-like lubricant -- sorta like vaseline -- around the base of the shell. Not an ideal solution, however.

Thanks for the responses, guys and cheers.

 

[tiriaq]

Hard extraction is often caused by the case sticking to a fouled or rough chamber. Softer than normal brass can aggravate this. Examine fired brass carefully. If it is sticking in a rough chamber, you will be able to tell from the appearance of the surface of the brass. The bumps you see are from the brass fireforming into the pits. If the chamber is fouled, cleaning should remedy the problem. If its rough, has scab rust, or is pitted, it can be scoured out or polished. I have used steel wool wrapped on an old bore brush, lots of oil, spun with an electric drill. Or, a slip of fine emery cloth can be inserted in a split in a rod, oiled, and similarly spun with a drill. Note that either of these measures are a bit drastic, and should never be done unless there is no alternative. Over the years, I've worked on some pretty grim rifles. Too much polishing can enlarge the chamber, and you don't want to do that. Don't allow the power scouring or polishing to extend up into the throat.
All brass expands to fit the chamber. Expansion occurs foreward of the solid head portion. How obvious the expansion ring is will depend on how large the chamber diameter is compared to the unfired case diameter. It may not be a sign of a problem. Some Lee Enfields have very generous chambers.
If a chamber is rusted beyond use, the barrel can be set back and rechambered, or a new barrel fitted. Neither of these options is inexpensive, unless you can do it yourself. Another sported Lee Enfield can be purchased for less than the cost of repairs. One with a bad barrel is worth more as parts than as a rifle.
Putting lube on the case will increase backthrust on the bolt and action, and isn't a good long term solution.

 

[whimmus]

tiriaq, thanks for the notes. I think this is going to have to be my next step with this gun. It was my first restoration attempt after buying (rescuing) it. I plan further stock and metal work if I can lick this chamber issue.

Here is a pic of the chamber:

Here is a pic of the cartridge, showing the raised bumps that I think are causing the difficult extraction (note - the lighting has been set up to make it 'pop' out for the picture):

I have a drill, some wool, oil and the will to try it. What's the worst that can happen? What can *possibly* go wrong?

 

[englishman_ca]

Looks like the chamber is toast. Perhaps there was a seperated case stuck at some time and somebody dug and removed it with a screwdriver. Or are those rust pits?

I suggest a wooden dowel with a sawcut split on the end to accept a strip of fine wet'n'dry abrasive paper. Chuck it in a hand drill, lots of oil and, give her! Smooth things out. Chamber will be larger for sure, but it should extract. Brass is designed to expand to make the seal. If you are not going to reload the cases then it might not a big deal.

Needless to say, watch out for major bulge and splitting and case seperations. Do the first few shots using the old tire and a string on the trigger trick

There are some pretty loose chambered old rifles out there that still shoot just fine, but trash the brass. I know, I have one.

Setting the barrel back one thread and reaming the chamber is a pain in the arse. Gunsmiths charge well for the work involved. Not rocket science but has to be done right.

Not economical to do it for a low collector or hunter value sporter. So unless it has some other value, a family heirloom or such, then just replace the barrel. You will need a barrel vice and an action wrench to do it. Those barrels are on there freeking tight!

 

[tiriaq]

Yes, those are little burrs thrown up. Maybe someone did have a case separation, and had a go at digging out the broken case. They should polish out. Just clean off the burrs, don't enlarge the chamber, and it should be OK.

 

[whimmus]

englishman_ca and tiriaq, thanks for the suggestions. I hate to read "Looks like the chamber is toast." but when its followed up with "I suggest..." that's ok.

I hope to take a stab at using wool and/or englishmans dowel trick tomorrow night.

I'll post results with pics if I'm not too embaressed.

The gun has no sentimental value, but its my testbed for restoring the milsurp stuff, which was one of the main reasons I finally got off my duff and got licensed.

Cheers.

 

[smellie]

It is definitely a scored chamber, likely the result of rusting that wasn't caught in time. The instructions given for polishing it out will work a minor miracle.

Apart from that, the swelling at the base of the casings is perfectly normal; the brass swells at the moment of firing to seal the chamber, which is why we use brass casings. After about the middle of 1916, SMLE chambers were larger than previously, this because there was some awful garbage ammo out there. Same thing happened with the Ross, same problem, but it showed up first with lousy ammo being issued to the Canadians, so the Ross got the rocket for it. When bad ammo started showing up all along the Front, the British were smater and quieter..... simply brought out a new chamber spec without bothering to tell anybody. Worked.

The rifle should safely handle anything sold commercially as .303 British ammunition. The Mark VII loading came out in 1910 and gave a 174-grain composite metal-jacketed flat-base bullet at 2440 ft/sec for a muzzle energy of 2300 ft/lbs. Commercial ammunition wuth 150-grain bullets often stepped out at 2700 or so. There is a handload in the Winchester book for the 150=grain bullet that gives you 2650 at the muzzle; I use this loading in several rifles as new as 1944 and as early as 1904 and have no problems at all with it. It's accurate in a couple of rifles, too, which is a real bonus.

Good luck with your project. Hope to see her on the range.