F Class Nationals and Worlds
- Thread starter dryfire
- Start date
i will comment on a Sightron i had a shooter have one let go wouldn't hold vertical SIII 10x50 (stacking) click click click still shot low 4 ring one more click pop's out the top high 4, we switched it for the scope on my rifle. Now i can't say, if or how long this scope was in this condition but i wouldn't let the shooter use it for the team events.
these are the other scopes i heard failed
Vortex 3 multiple issues
Nightforce Comp 1 erector
March 1 stacking..
All the best
Trevor
these are the other scopes i heard failed
Vortex 3 multiple issues
Nightforce Comp 1 erector
March 1 stacking..
All the best
Trevor
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It is interesting but I attend a lot of matches in the west from Canada to almost Mexico and seen most brands fail. Leupold recalled the entire first production run of their scope, The Nightforce Comp had to be redesigned from Gen 1 to Gen 2, Marches have also had multiple issues and now Vortex is having issues which doesn't surprise me because it is a new design scope.
The one brand I almost never hear having issues is Sightron yet I hear a lot of negative comments about the brand, in fact, more so than any other brand.
The one brand I almost never hear having issues is Sightron yet I hear a lot of negative comments about the brand, in fact, more so than any other brand.
One of the better descriptions of scopes I read was that there's 2 types of scopes. The ones that have failed, and the ones that haven't failed yet.
The more I've had the chance to learn about scopes and dealing with my own scope issues, I'd say its a pretty accurate statement. There's many things that can go wrong, and a lot of things that have to go extremely right to get a really good scope, at the price point and margins most are trying to keep, its far from an easy thing to achieve, its amazing many of them offer as much as they do for their cost.
Anyone of them can have an issue, some brands & models more or less than others.
With Vortex's reputation, I would expect that the guys would have all done a lot of testing ahead of time(if they could?) to sort any definite bad ones, which should be done with any new scope made by whoever, mostly before entering such a big competiton, and even with all that it still doesn't mean it won't start to develop an issue or quit at the worst of time.
The more I've had the chance to learn about scopes and dealing with my own scope issues, I'd say its a pretty accurate statement. There's many things that can go wrong, and a lot of things that have to go extremely right to get a really good scope, at the price point and margins most are trying to keep, its far from an easy thing to achieve, its amazing many of them offer as much as they do for their cost.
Anyone of them can have an issue, some brands & models more or less than others.
With Vortex's reputation, I would expect that the guys would have all done a lot of testing ahead of time(if they could?) to sort any definite bad ones, which should be done with any new scope made by whoever, mostly before entering such a big competiton, and even with all that it still doesn't mean it won't start to develop an issue or quit at the worst of time.
That makes me smile and reflect upon the wise comment repeated by SND about two types of scopes ! Of all the brands I own / have owned the only one I've ever has to send back is Sightron - sent a 8-32 (holding zero ) and 10-50 ( paint inside tube flaked off ). Both covered under warranty very efficiently ( Thank You Peter ! ). Having said that, I still think Sightron make very good scopes; are a very viable alternate to many in their price brackets and often are the 'value buy'.
I would suggest this is as false narrative. I will only speak of the one model that has consistently shown to fail the SIII 10x50; it has gone down at a much higher rate percentage wise based on ownership then others. The predominate scope in F class is Nightforce.
I can not speak for the other scopes in the Sightron line. I am only referring to the SIII 10x50
All the best
Trevor
I have sent back so many Leupold's that I quit buying that brand. The most common issue I have found in all makes of scopes is the inability to hold a small group. Most start being able to shoot tight groups and then over time the groups get bigger and bigger with even the same lot of ammo. Change scope and the rifle goes back to shooting small groups. I have found now when I have shooting issues with a rifle I automatically change scopes first before anything else.
I have talked to several scope engineers from various companies and asked them why this happens. Still haven't got an answer.
I have talked to several scope engineers from various companies and asked them why this happens. Still haven't got an answer.
fully agree... this is the worst situation i wish all scopes would just take a dump and not tease us with 4 shot plus a flyer or 3 shot 4th touching and a flyer, just shoot a shotgun pattern already so we can know with confidence it is the scope LOL
all the best
Trevor
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
My experience with the SIII 10-50 has been excellent. had a few over the years.... passed them on and so far, all well.
I kept the scope I had on my rifle during the 2013 Worlds (got it in 2012). Has seen well over 10,000 rds in practice, testing and competition. I sent it in last fall to get a look over... they said, all was well. It has sat on the rifle that has helped me win 3 of 4 matches I have attended this year in Washington. Was going to see some action at the Nationals and Worlds but life decided otherwise.
But chasing equipment 'ghosts' is by far, the most frustrating thing about any accuracy minded sport.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/scope-testing.3928325/
It is a long thread but the premise is very interesting. Test the scope against a fixed scope and see if the internals are moving with vibration. There were a number tested with some very interesting results. This is not a critique of any brand or scope type but a way for us to monitor and diagnose our gear.
This off season, I am seriously going to look into making one of these mounts and figuring out how to freeze a scope.
Regardless of brand, stuff breaks... being able to quickly diagnose a mechanical problem will save time and a huge amount of money.
It was sad to hear the number of scopes going down on the National team. Those guys have worked their butt off and having to deal with these problems is not something I would wish on any competitor.
Hopefully Vortex will be able to improve on the GE in Gen 2.
Jerry
I was a shooter in F Open with the Canadian team. My March 8-80 went on me in the Nationals while I was 1 point out of first. it started going on the first of the two remaining relays of the championship. The windage stopped tracking properly. At first I thought it was my lousy wind calling. When I shot the last relay at 900m it really went. It would not track at all and then it would jump, I stopped shooting the relay. While the fellow I was shooting with continued shooting, I checked the tracking and it would not move while adjusting and suddenly jump to either right or left. I believe the problem with my failure was due to slamming my stock into the rear bag prior to a relay to settle the bag. I did this for the last four years at every relay. All F open shooters rifles were capable of 1/4 to 1/3 moa at 1000 yards, but in harsh conditions that occur, they all shot 1/2 moa or less.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
It was a heartbreak to hear about the problem with your scope... wow, that is just something we all fear and dread and hope it never happens.
Congrats on still shooting so well and on your teams Silver Medal at the Worlds.
Jerry
Congrats on still shooting so well and on your teams Silver Medal at the Worlds.
Jerry
Jerry - any feedback from SVSS 10-50 owners you can share. Hard to find much about these scopes online.
Its fairly simple really, you have a whole bunch of mating parts that have to able to slide and turn and yet magically have zero clearance or backlash, which is something mostly impossible within the given space of a scope, and cost of manufacturing. Then some of these components will wear over time with use, good material selection, finishes, testing, etc will improve that, and it all costs $.
Same with all the machining, everything has tolerances, with the majority of scopes being mass produced very cheaply, there's no time to mix and match parts for best fit and so on. Scope #1000 could have been put together with a set of parts that were all ideal and makes a scope that will hold under 1/8, and #1001 had parts that(or even just 1 part) that pushed the tolerances and it'll be lucky to hold say 1/2moa, if it doesn't have other issues.
Now most people would never know their scope can only hold say 1/2moa on 99.9% of the rifles sold in this world, and they won't know they have a bad scope until the reticle falls out of it or similar major break down. But when you're pushing the limits in BR and F-class and some military use, its becoming a real thing and concern, along with much better testing on and off the gun. BR figured it out long ago I think, fixed/frozen scopes, minimum moving parts usually helps. Same with not making more adjustments than necessary while shooting.
As to vertical changes some mentioned, unless you're darn sure you're scope tracks perfect. If you're only off a click up or down and its holding, I now think its often best to aim off just a bit than to risk a jump. Put a click and it moves a minute... had it happen, seen it happen with others too. I think that gets worse near the ends of travel with some design, and again every brand has some differences in how they move the parts in there.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
No one has complained or offered any concerns.... I assume they are enjoying their scopes???? I know several are sitting on top of larger cal boomers... I guess no news is good news.
My experience has been very positive... tracking and focus are solid. The 20 min per revolution makes dialing for varying distances so easy. Don't need zero stop cause I am only going in 1 revolution
My SV enjoyed the loving luggage handling of Air Canada when I returned from Ottawa 2 summers ago. Tire tracks on the rifle cases, cracked stock, definitely a hard hit to the scope.
It continued to work great until a couple of matches back where the optics gave out. Given the beating it took, it survived and thrived for alot more shooting and dialing. I do not fault the failure to the scope as anything getting run over is stressed.
I will continue to use and compete with my SV... just love that side focus.
Jerry
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
When I set up my scopes, I adjust the scope zero so I am in the middle of the elevation travel over the distances I will compete at. So for me, 700m/800yds to 900m/1000yds is where most of my matches are.
I will also shim the scope so it is centered for windage. Burris rings with inserts coupled with a 20 MOA base makes this easy to do. The new XTR sig with up to 40min of shim should make any install a snap.
I feel this is the best way to set up ANY target scope. You are in the sweet spot of your optic and mechanical.
Alot of scopes stop tracking if the adjustments are in the "corner" of their travel. When the adjustments are at any extreme, it compromises the other axis movement as the erector systems is likely running out of room in the tube.
If a target shooter is using their scope within 1 turn of max W or E, consider shimming your scope. It will likely solve alot of tracking problems... which is not really the fault of the scope.
Jerry
My competition scopes are all single focus 24X or 20X. I give up a lot by not having a zoom, but gain in reliability.
I have not had any bad luck with zooms, but I saw one taken apart once, and it looked like a watch. So many parts that it scared me.
I would love to buy a single power 24X Vortex, Sightron or NF.
I have not had any bad luck with zooms, but I saw one taken apart once, and it looked like a watch. So many parts that it scared me.
I would love to buy a single power 24X Vortex, Sightron or NF.
Its funny ... we dont mind building ammo from component parts or disassembling and fine tuning every piece of our rifle, mounts, rests to improve on them etc ... but who takes their scope apart to see why it performs the way it does? Anybody? Few? ... I imagine if the W&E in competition optics were constructed to track like a Warner sight ... we wouldn't be reading about these issues of 'stacking' ....
AFAIK the standard approach to adjusting scope windage and elevation is two leaf springs (or coils possibly) that the W&E adjustments press the reticle cell against... pretty rustic and archaic mechanical technology if you ask me. Might be better off with an update to the old Unertl external adjustments. And of course bigger glass can mean more weight (and inertia under recoil and momentum induced by recoil) that some of these internal components must deal with.
