fat and slow VS skinny and fast

[John Y Cannuck]

No, this is not a thread about girl friends

Bullets.

I'm sure, that some back woods comando, will chime in and say that it doesn't matter as long as you put it in the right place, and that, is so. However, under some circumstances, putting it in the right place, may depend upon penetration, or, under different circumstances, upon flat long range trajectory.

Fat slow bullets, not the friend of the prarie, or mountain shooter, who need longer ranges, and the flatter trajectory that hits at such ranges the unpracticed marksman requires. They are the fav of many a back woodsman, who apreciate the big blood trails, and deep penetration needed for bad angled shots at close range.

High speed skinny bullets
the fav of the long range hunter. These hunters usually have more time to set up their shots than the bush guys, and bad angle shots are not as common. Long ranges and wind are their enemy, and the high velocity helps them score.

OK lets hear your pontifications....

 

[cdngunner]

"Main Entry: 2pon·tif·i·cate
Pronunciation: pän-'ti-f&-"kAt
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -cat·ed; -cat·ing
Etymology: Medieval Latin pontificatus, past participle of pontificare, from Latin pontific-, pontifex
1 a : to officiate as a pontiff b : to celebrate pontifical mass
2 : to speak or express opinions in a pompous or dogmatic way "

O.K who are you calling pompus??????

Well you said it all yourself didn't you. Use what ever "tools", in your possession,that will do the best in the conditions your hunting.


ie.

For bear defense (Oh God I'm so sorry) you want the biggest caliber you can handle to do the biggest damage at close range. No need for a wind bucking bullet here.

 

[OnnO]

Thank God there is no such thing as universal cartridge...so we can keep buying and reloading.. nn

 

[Trident]

Never one to follow all the rules.......


I'm gonna say, a really heavy, fat, 'very high speed' bullet.

 

[JohnnyJ]

35 Whelen
250gr @ 2600fps
4" high at 150 yds
Zero @ 250yds
5" low at 300 yds
22" low at 400 yds
Works well for me on Moose, Elk and the occasional Deer.

Good Luck
John

 

[Levi Garrett]

fat and slow VS skinny and fast

Moose in cover VS Ground hog on the plains

 

[riden]

But skinny and fast is so much fun before the hunt.

Plus, I am a meat hunter and we live of the moose. I spend $$ on moose hunting and I better come back with meat or I am hearing it from the missus. 45-70 for moose sounds like so much fun, but what if I turn down a shot that I could take with my 270 WSM??? That is right 270, not 300 WSM, not 338, 270 WSM.

Last years shot was straight downhill (ravine) 200 yards (really hard to judge). year before my moose was a 275 yard shot, not doing that with 45-70, don't know if I could make the ravine shot either.

As long as I hunt meat first, I need long range

 

[MiG25]

depends on what you are hunting and where.

in southern saskatchewan, you really can see your dog running away for 3 days and the game is not that big.

get into thicker stuff and larger game and things might change for you.

my pick for general use, a medium/heavy bullet at medium speed. like a 175 gr 7mm @ 2400 fps, 180 gr 30 cal @ 2500 fps, or a 200 gr 8mm at 2500 fps.

i have no use for a .243 or .25 at any speed, too much for gophers, too little for elk.

also, on any mountain that i have seen and set foot on, long shots are not needed, or even usually possible, especially below timberline. mountains are not perfect triangles, there are lots of dips and gulleys and outcrops for cover. yes, game is often spotted at long range, but much too far away for anything (short of maybe artillery) to reach.

 

[woodchopper]

my choices for hunting right now are 25-06 if its Deer only, If it's Moose, Elk, Deer, Bear hunting then its the 7mm RemMag. However I just bought a savage in 300WM and its getting broken in and loads worked up so I may be using it this fall.

Ranges tend to be longer and game tends to be cooperative, standing still and such. Usually I find that at longer ranges deer tend to move off a little ways then stop to look and see what your doing, that gives you about 3 seconds to nail them while they are standing still.

so I'm in agreement with JYC's analysis

I do like my 30-30 for close in work, and an enfield in 303 works well for a truck gun for intermediate range.

 

[SignGuy]

i am a cheap/poor bastard so for all my hunting i use a sported enfield in the venerable .303 british i keep a 12 gauge pump with slugs as a back up in case the .303 cant do the job. but i also hunt in dense contario brush and dont need to reach out past 50-75 yds often

 

[dumbdawg]

all depends on what and where i'm hunting

 

[BIGREDD]

Geezuz and I thought this was gonna be about women... pass the flour.

Seriously, I am fond of big fat slow bullets... slug-guns and muzzle loaders have been my bread and butter big game firearms for 30 years. I took my first deer with a 2 3/4" paper hulled Imperial slug! I like great big lead and heavy meplat bullets they can make the difference when the shooting is tight and the game is fast.
Flip side, I love to shoot my rifles on Big Game and Varmints as well... Long range... Magnum rifles... mid-weight premium bullets... screaming fast... tons of energy. Give me a Belted, Short or Ultra Mag... I don't care how long the barrel lasts... life is short too! If I can range it I can shoot it.... work the bolt before the sound gets there and shoot it again.
Short and fat or long and lean they all need lovin, wait a minute, I forgot we were talking about rifles..... weren't we!

 

[stubblejumper]

They are the fav of many a back woodsman, who apreciate the big blood trails, and deep penetration needed for bad angled shots at close range.

If you drive a smaller caliber bullet such as the tsx at high velocity,the result is deep penetration and good blood trails,as well as flat trajectory and less wind drift..

 

[Amphibious]

I prefer heavy-for-caliber bullets. I'd rather have a larger chunck of lead moving slower then a lighter one moving faster.

 

[John Y Cannuck]

If you drive a smaller caliber bullet such as the tsx at high velocity,the result is deep penetration and good blood trails,as well as flat trajectory and less wind drift..

Can't say as i've used the TSX, but, most small diameter high velocity catridges designed for deep penetration, suffer for it.
Large flesh wound followed by pencil hole. or, maybe just, pencil hole, or maybe a keyhole, if a twig should be found..
Yes, I know, if they work the way they are supposed to, they put the animal down quickly. But, and I know your aware of it, hunting doesn't always give you the perfect setting.
Big slugs at slow speed, are, IMO more consistent. I didn't say they were more effective, or less for that matter, just more consistent, for bush and short range aplications. Yes, big slow slugs can keyhole too, on a twig, but, IMO, if they hit, keyholing, they will outperform a keyholing small bullet, and get the job done.

 

[stubblejumper]

Can't say as i've used the TSX, but, most small diameter high velocity catridges designed for deep penetration, suffer for it.
Large flesh wound followed by pencil hole. or, maybe just, pencil hole, or maybe a keyhole, if a twig should be found..

How does that look to you?Plenty of penetration,and no pencil hole or keyhole.This is a 180gr tsx driven out of a 300ultramag at 3380fps.It was recovered from my 2005 elk.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d128/stubblejumper11/PA050015.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d128/stubblejumper11/PA050019.jpg

 

[303carbine]

fast,slow etc.

I shoot them both and they have their applications. But then I hunt rabbits with a 45-70 .....

 

[Gatehouse]

I want to take any shot that I am presented with.

In alot of BC, you can be hunting in thick cover one hour, and have a 400 yard shot the next.

So I tend to go with a combonation that will do the trick, whatever is presented.

FOr me,it is a 7mm-30 cal fast rifle, with wel costructed bullets, and a variable scope. Specifically, I primarily use a 7RM and a 300WSM, both with a 2.5-8x36 Vari X III. I use Nosler partions, Accubonds and now- TSX bullets.

I turn the scope down to 2.5 int he thick and up to 4 in the open. If I need more magnification, i have it with just a twist.

Premium bullets change the terrain quite a bit. A skinny and fast bullet need not fall short of a fat and slow bullet anymore, except if youare dealing with actual "stopping" of an animal perhaps.

One of the reasons that I use a 375 H&H on bears is because I like to floor them as soon as possible. so they don't run off in to thick cover. But seeing how 308, 277 and .7mm X bullets perform on bears makes my choice somewhat unnecessary. Bears seem to drop every bit as fast with a 160 gr X bullet at 2900-3000fps as they do with a 300gr Partiton at 2550 fps.

The fat and slow cartridges limit you in range, and the fast skinny ones do not. And thier killing power is not remarkably different with the new bullets these days...Hell even Elmer Keith's insistance on big, slow and heavy was really because of the bullets of his day. Had he been able to stick a 140gr tsx in a .270, his tune may have changed!

Bottom line is that you need to tailor your needs to your cartridge. FOr me, I'll take the fast and skninny wiht a good bullet, so I dont' need to worry about whether I have the gear to take that 350 yard shot or the close up one.

 

[280_ACKLEY]

I want to take any shot that I am presented with.

In alot of BC, you can be hunting in thick cover one hour, and have a 400 yard shot the next.

So I tend to go with a combonation that will do the trick, whatever is presented.

FOr me,it is a 7mm-30 cal fast rifle, with wel costructed bullets, and a variable scope. Specifically, I primarily use a 7RM and a 300WSM, both with a 2.5-8x36 Vari X III. I use Nosler partions, Accubonds and now- TSX bullets.

I turn the scope down to 2.5 int he thick and up to 4 in the open. If I need more magnification, i have it with just a twist.

Premium bullets change the terrain quite a bit. A skinny and fast bullet need not fall short of a fat and slow bullet anymore, except if youare dealing with actual "stopping" of an animal perhaps.

One of the reasons that I use a 375 H&H on bears is because I like to floor them as soon as possible. so they don't run off in to thick cover. But seeing how 308, 277 and .7mm X bullets perform on bears makes my choice somewhat unnecessary. Bears seem to drop every bit as fast with a 160 gr X bullet at 2900-3000fps as they do with a 300gr Partiton at 2550 fps.

The fat and slow cartridges limit you in range, and the fast skinny ones do not. And thier killing power is not remarkably different with the new bullets these days...Hell even Elmer Keith's insistance on big, slow and heavy was really because of the bullets of his day. Had he been able to stick a 140gr tsx in a .270, his tune may have changed!

Bottom line is that you need to tailor your needs to your cartridge. FOr me, I'll take the fast and skninny wiht a good bullet, so I dont' need to worry about whether I have the gear to take that 350 yard shot or the close up one.

Scary how much we think alike!!!!!

After using my 35 Whelen with a variety of bullets (250gr Speer Hot Core, 250gr Hornady SP, and 225gr TSX) on bear, mulie, whitetail, and moose, I came to the conclusion that it did nothing my 280AI couldn't do, and in many instances it fell short of the 280AI (trajectory, recoil).

My favorite is a 140gr 7mm bullet @ 3000-3200fps.... my favorite is the TSX, but the 140 Acubond and Partition have given me nothing to complain about.

Like Gatehouse, the terrain I hunt can throw it all at you in one day of hunting. Twenty yard shots in the timber, and an hour later a 450yard+ shot across a clearcut or hillside.

For the me the 7's get it done with ease....and leave nothing on the table with regards to on game performance.

280_ACKLEY

 

[ivo]

What Stubblejumper, Gatehouse and 280 Ackley said!