Federal Lake City 7.62x51 XM80CS

[TomExAF]

Hi,
Just receive a case of Federal Lake City 7.62x51 ammunition. I like reloading LC brass.
The rounds I received are head stamped Fc, date stamp 19. The last case I received was all LC stamped.
A bit of google tells me that this Fc brass is identical to LC brass given they used same equipment, materials and process. (Federal operating the Lake City plant)
But then there are others who claim the Fc brass is inferior.
I've used commercial Fc 308 brass for reloads and don't like it - But this stuff is definitely not commercial Fc 308. Crimped primers, date stamp, etc.

Can anyone provide input on Federal Lake City brass for reloading?

 

[bigedp51]

The cases are not the same, the Lake City cases with the NATO cross are made to U.S. Military standards. The Federal cases are made at Lake City when the military contracts for NATO ammunition have been filled, meaning the down time between making NATO 7.62 ammunition. In the chart below you can see the case weights and case volume are not the same even though they are made on the same equipment. The military cases are made of a harder brass and the flash hole web is thicker.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6577732&postcount=13

 

[BlackSheepBrass]

The FC 19 very similar LC 17 that was circulation, with the rough technical analysis I have done. Primer pockets tend to be very tight even after swaging on both, would probably do better with a reamer then swaging. I have seen odd pieces of 7.62 FC 18 around, most of it went to fill overseas contracts apparently.

FC 19 was 180.5 grains unprocessed / not trimmed / uncleaned averaged over 5 pieces

LC 17 was 181.9 grains unprocessed / not trimmed /uncleaned average over 5 pieces

FC .308 (commercial ammunition you are referencing is bad for blowing out the primer pockets as the case heads are soft in that head size. I won't sell Federal .308 brass anymore as it caused me a couple of issues.

FC 19 is 7.62 x 51mm made in at the Lake City plant operated by ATK from anything I have seen referenced. I know ATK (Federal for all intensive purposes) is required to make 20% extra above the military requirements and is allowed to sell it if the military does not require it.

BSB

 

[TomExAF]

The cases are not the same, the Lake City cases with the NATO cross are made to U.S. Military standards. The Federal cases are made at Lake City when the military contracts for NATO ammunition have been filled, meaning the down time between making NATO 7.62 ammunition. In the chart below you can see the case weights and case volume are not the same even though they are made on the same equipment. The military cases are made of a harder brass and the flash hole web is thicker.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6577732&postcount=13

It looks like the comparison in the link was using commercial federal 308. The Fc 19 is not commercial but rather 7.62 mil spec ammunition with crimped primers. I've never seen commercial brass with date stamp.

 

[TomExAF]

The FC 19 very similar LC 17 that was circulation, with the rough technical analysis I have done. Primer pockets tend to be very tight even after swaging on both, would probably do better with a reamer then swaging. I have seen odd pieces of 7.62 FC 18 around, most of it went to fill overseas contracts apparently.

FC 19 was 180.5 grains unprocessed / not trimmed / uncleaned averaged over 5 pieces

LC 17 was 181.9 grains unprocessed / not trimmed /uncleaned average over 5 pieces

FC .308 (commercial ammunition you are referencing is bad for blowing out the primer pockets as the case heads are soft in that head size. I won't sell Federal .308 brass anymore as it caused me a couple of issues.

FC 19 is 7.62 x 51mm made in at the Lake City plant operated by ATK from anything I have seen referenced. I know ATK (Federal for all intensive purposes) is required to make 20% extra above the military requirements and is allowed to sell it if the military does not require it.

BSB

This seems to be a more plausible - overrun being sold off. The difference in the brass weight compared with LC is minimal (I have compared commercial FC to LC and saw 5 to 7gn difference).
I'll keep the case for plinking and do my own measurements when it is time to reload this brass. Hopefully I will get a similar reload count as with LC.

 

[bigedp51]

I do not have any sectioned images of the .308/7.62 cases made by Federal or at Lake City but I do have .223/5.56 cases pictured below. And the problem I had with the FC 09 and FC 10 5.56 cases can be seen in the photo below. The FC cases have a thinner flash hole web and this shortened primer pocket life and I experienced this myself.

I fully prepped a five gallon bucket full of once fired FC 09 and FC 10 5.56 cases and many of then had lose primer pockets after the first firing. So now I only buy bulk once fired 5.56 and 7.62 Lake City brass with the NATO cross from military ranges.

The only way to really settle this discussion is the test the hardness of the brass and section the two type cases and see if the FC marked 7.62 cases have a thin flash hole web.

The photo below is from AR15.com and posted by the reloading moderator. A two inch rod was made to measure the flash hole web thickness to sort out the bad cases. So you can do the same for the FC or LC marked 7.62 cases and see if they have a thinner flash hole web. All you have to do to the rod is hollow out one end with a drill so it will fit over any burrs sticking up around the flash hole and prevent false readings.

Below is a milspec drawing for the "military" Lake City 5.56 cartridge case, please note that the dimensional drawing shows the flash hole web must be .065 min thickness. In the lower left it shows the hardness gradient for the brass case. I know we will be lucky if anyone here has a Rockwell hardness tester but if you section a FC marked case you can measure the flash hole web for thickness and possibly end the discussion.

How Hard is Your Brass? 5.56 and .223 Rem Base Hardness Tests
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/how-hard-is-your-brass-5-56-and-223-rem-base-hardness-tests/

The above was from a posting by my buddy CarShooter at accurateshooter.com to settle a "discussion" if Lake City brass was harder than Lapua. And in a later posting he tested Federal brass and it was the softest tested.

Federal under bid the contract to produce ammunition at Lake City and was allowed to produce and sell ammunition to make up for the low bid. And I know Remington and Winchester were not allowed to do this and I can't imagine that Federal is using the same quality brass and military standards for what they are selling to the commercial market.

 

[BlackSheepBrass]

Federal under bid the contract to produce ammunition at Lake City and was allowed to produce and sell ammunition to make up for the low bid. And I know Remington and Winchester were not allowed to do this and I can't imagine that Federal is using the same quality brass and military standards for what they are selling to the commercial market.

Whenever someone operates the Lake City Plant they are required to manufacture the 20% extra from my understanding, and in busy times like during Iraq and Afghanistan the military takes the extra 20% of the ammunition for what is being consumed with the increase demand of the training for deployment, and the actual deployment. The ammunition being discussed in this thread is specifically XM80 (the CS on the end of it just designated case quantity). To have that designation, it is required to be manufactured to US military requirements for M80 ammunition if I understand the documentation correctly.

When running any factory especially a government arsenal on contact, you aren't going to shut down the line for a week change a line over to save half a penny per piece to cater to the consumer. It is common practice in industry to just change the button stamp (stamps the head stamp) That can be done in 5 minutes vs retooling the whole line. This is done extensively in the commercial realm, as there are not a significant amount of brass manufacturers in USA. A majority of it comes out of the same 10 places with custom head stamps. I know General Dynamics in Valcartier used to run brass for Winchester on occasion. I don't know if they still do or not.

 

[bigedp51]

The best and fastest way to check the FC stamped cases is to section the base of the FC and LC cases and see how thick the flash hole webs are. And if the flash hole web is thinner it simply means the primer pockets will stretch out of shape faster and you will end up with loose primer pockets.

I had problems with FC 09 and FC 10 dated 5.56 Federal cases after going to the trouble of sizing and prepping these cases. And by prepping the cases I mean removing the primer crimp, uniforming the primer pockets, deburring the flash holes and trimming to minimum length. And after doing hundreds of these cases by hand I had some very sore fingers only to find out when I went to primer the cases many of them had loose primer pockets. And in the end I simply stop using FC or Federal cases and only bought bulk once fired Lake City (LC) marked military cases.

If I was in the OP shoes and stuck with questionable Federal cases I would "NOT" load these cases anywhere near maximum. And when reloading them I would double check for loose primer pockets. These cases the OP bought may be fine and made to military specifications, "BUT" if not the end result will be a etched bolt face.

There were many problems with FC 5.56 cases in AR15 reloading forums and having etched bolt faces. So be careful I bought primer pocket gauges and pin gauges to check the Federal cases. And in the end I just stopped using Federal brass because it wasn't worth all the work checking the primer pockets and base expansion for over stressed brass.

Below is the problem AR15 owners had with FC marked 5.56 cases and etched bolt faces.

Below if the primer pocket felt loose during seating I used a Lee depriming tool and if the primer moved with just finger pressure the case went in the scrap brass bucket.

Below different brands of 5.56 cases showing the flash hole web thickness, and the Federal cases have the thinnest flash hole webs. And the thicker the flash hole web the more strength the base of the case has and the longer your primer pockets last.

If you have ejector marks it simply means the brass can not take the pressure you are loading at and it is flowing into the ejector hole in the bolt face. And a second method is to measure base expansion just above the extractor groove. "BUT" a case with a thicker flash hole web will show less base expansion.

Simple Trick for Monitoring Pressure of Your Rifle Reloads
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/tips-and-tricks/simple-trick-monitoring-pressure-your-rifle-reloads

 

[doowroh]

I had a very similar post a few weeks back. I got a lot of the same answers you did. I even called Federal Cartridge Company to inquire. My gut told me that I had been duped. Federal says they are the exact same, barring the headstamp, but they're the ones profiting from it, so who's to say? I had previously been reloading commercial FC cases, and been getting loose primer pockets on some after just one loading. I tore down a dozen or so of the FC headstamped XM80s, and took some basic measurements. I don't have any proper LC headstamp brass to compare it to though. Time to reach out to Black Sheep Brass.

This was my post.