Federal Line of Bear and Wild Animal Defence 9mm Rounds

B said:
Feel free to share actual proof or experience to the contrary. It doesn't seem like you have anything but a poorly formed opinion. I don't see anyone recommending it. Saying it won't work is just wrong though.
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Please quote me where I said it won’t work, because I didn’t. You’re the one putting those words in my mouth, the op asked about the suitability of this ammo. I said what the ministry has as their minimum requirement for a handgun cartridge is if you are defending yourself for a wilderness atc, 9mm isn’t on that list for a reason.

I live/work in bear county (black and brown), I hunt bears, I have taken bear awareness/defense courses for work so you really don’t know what I know or what experience I have.
 
B said:
^good points made there. I would add though that shooting accurately and FAST in double action is also pretty difficult. Anyone who would limp wrist a semi would also probably short stroke a shotgun. Practice is a huge part of animal defence especially when you are talking bears.

Staying on topic, the 9mm is still capable of killing and the OP's ammo may be a decent option for those with no other option or the somewhat erroneous inclination to choose a 9mm.
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indeed, everyone's skill level is different and one should be aware of their strengths and limitations....

Thompson–LaGarde Tests are a good read and though dated....

Something I found interesting through my own study is how much of a velocity is gained by putting a 357, 10mm and 44 into a rifle length barrel and how much is not gained by doing the same with the 9mm...

not many years ago (late 40s early 50s) in BC, forest workers were issued 1911 pistols and 45 FMJ ammo for defensive carry...not a lot of power or penetration but it was what was available....likely they were almost entirely used as noisemakers....this was in the west Kootenay where cougar were also numerous...
 
I'd still prefer a 12 Gauge with decent slugs to a pistol . I shot Groundhogs with a 223 years ago and was never impressed with the power . but nail them with a 12 Gauge and the story was totally different . if a 9mm was all you owned then so be it . I'd feel somewhat safer with a 357 and heavy bullets . buddy should have been carrying his 44 mag . that 9mm is better suited for dogs or to take Bar hopping in Alaska . not for something that can rip you to pieces .
 
thegazelle said:
I found saw this at the local store recently and curious what everyone's thoughts are on this.

https://g4cgunstore.com/product/federal-solid-core-9mm-luger-p-147gr-syntech-polymer-jacket-20rds/

I wasn't aware that there was a market for a 9mm round for bear defence. Assuming these would go into carbines, but if a bear was charging me, I'm not sure this is what I would want to have equipped. But I have been wrong before and am hardly an expert on these matters. For those who may actually encounter bear issues, would you trust this round (of course, I understand the round is only as effective as the shooter's ability to shoot the firearm effectively, but I am just asking in general)?

I guess the solid core properties makes it more apt to be effective against bears with tough hides rather than the typical self defence hollow point round found in 9mm. Always nice to see new and interesting products out there, but I'd wonder how this would differ than a standard 147gr FMJ or ball round or is this more of a gimmick?
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I can't find an on-line penetration test.

If I were to go down that road, I would buy another 200 rounds to test with my gun.

Just imagine being down south, hunting bears, getting charged and when you need it the most your pistol jamming.
 
Of course we would all rather have a shotgun with a 3" magnum slug if a bear were on top of us - but, if you had a 9mm PCC in your hands at the time, then this load would be the right idea. Often we carry a Ruger PCC around the farm and this load would be a good choice. In an emergency, the best gun to have is the one you happen to actually have in your hands.
 
Butcherbill said:
He had to shoot it 7 times, lol. That’s more than enough to show you how poor 9mm hard cast is on a small bear as well, they’re all lucky it wasn’t a large mature grizzly.

I guess when you spray and pray you’re bound to get lucky, if I was on a guided fishing/hunting trip and the guide had better options for a defensive gun and picked the 9mm I’d probably question their ability to keep everyone safe. If it was a mature Grizzly the outcome wouldn’t have been as good most likely.
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Actually, when you spray and pray, the luck you are most likely to encounter is bad.

The 9 mm worked.

What has worked for you?
 
No, I don't think it is a gimmick. Nor do I think that it is bear "defence".

What I would liken it to, is similar to poking a bear with a long stick, to get it to move along. And to be used within that parameter, it should work well enough on nuisance black bears around rural properties.

I have similar "move along bear" projectiles that work well to get a nuisance bear to keep going, and off my front yard or even off my deck.

I make hot melt glue bullets in 45-70 and use only a 209 primer for propellent. This drives the glue bullet at 500-550 fps, and will not injure or break skin. But it does make them lope away pretty quickly.
IMO, bears are incredibly smart animals. I am sure that they can and do remember us as, as they encounter us, year after year. They remember me. My wife can approach a bear in our yard, and it does not run off with any urgency. When I show up and approach the same bear.....it beetles away pretty quickly. I would bet the farm that it felt the poke of a hot melt glue bullet in the past.

I am happy to have bears around as long as they stay 50m away from my home and in the creek corridor that they like to use on my property. In fact, I enjoy seeing them.
 
First, I think that it is important to realize that this ammo is intended for the US market and not Canada. Most people are going to be able to handle and shoot a 9mm more effectively than larger handguns chambered to more sensible bear defense options.

And even if we were able to carry sidearms more freely here in Canada, the 9mm definitely would not be my first choice either. I would be carrying my 10mm or my 41 Rem Mag with heavy loads (Buffalo Bore 200 gr hard cast and 230 gr SWC Keith, respectively). (I was impressed of the reports of the effectiveness of the 10mm Buffalo Bore ammunition on Cape Buffalo. Definitely some serious penetration on large, heavy animals there! Yes, at extremely short range, but on a charging grizzly or brown bear, or a polar bear, distances may be as close and personal.

There's a reason why the CO's in BC changed from the 9mm sidearms to the 40 S&W; penetration.
In talking to the CO's that were instrumental in effecting the change, they found that the 9mm with 147 gr bullets would only penetrate approx 4" of muscle and bone compared to 20" of muscle and bone penetration with the 180 gr 40.

As for the 357 Magnum, Phil Shoemaker's daughter Tia loads and carries 180 gr hard cast bullets in her 357 Mag when guiding in Alaska (her back up rifle is a 416 Rem Mag). So obviously the 357 Mag will handle an Alaskan Brown Bear. And obviously she knows how to handle herself in bear country, and her chosen sidearm.

It is interesting that they are able to market a polymer coated bullet in the US. Aren't the outlawed "Cop Killers" polymer coated? (I don't recall at the moment...but it may be a different polymer or material)
In the end, if the polymer coating improves effective penetration, then it cannot be a bad thing...but efficacy on bears, of all types and sizes, will remain to be seen. The average problem bear that is 3 years old and about 150-250 lbs is definitely a different animal than a 500lb plus mature bear, of any variety.
Efficacy testing on wild hogs of varying size should also be interesting to see.
 
BlackRam said:
First, I think that it is important to realize that this ammo is intended for the US market and not Canada. Most people are going to be able to handle and shoot a 9mm more effectively than larger handguns chambered to more sensible bear defense options.

And even if we were able to carry sidearms more freely here in Canada, the 9mm definitely would not be my first choice either. I would be carrying my 10mm or my 41 Rem Mag with heavy loads (Buffalo Bore 200 gr hard cast and 230 gr SWC Keith, respectively). (I was impressed of the reports of the effectiveness of the 10mm Buffalo Bore ammunition on Cape Buffalo. Definitely some serious penetration on large, heavy animals there! Yes, at extremely short range, but on a charging grizzly or brown bear, or a polar bear, distances may be as close and personal.

There's a reason why the CO's in BC changed from the 9mm sidearms to the 40 S&W; penetration.
In talking to the CO's that were instrumental in effecting the change, they found that the 9mm with 147 gr bullets would only penetrate approx 4" of muscle and bone compared to 20" of muscle and bone penetration with the 180 gr 40.

As for the 357 Magnum, Phil Shoemaker's daughter Tia loads and carries 180 gr hard cast bullets in her 357 Mag when guiding in Alaska (her back up rifle is a 416 Rem Mag). So obviously the 357 Mag will handle an Alaskan Brown Bear. And obviously she knows how to handle herself in bear country, and her chosen sidearm.

It is interesting that they are able to market a polymer coated bullet in the US. Aren't the outlawed "Cop Killers" polymer coated? (I don't recall at the moment...but it may be a different polymer or material)
In the end, if the polymer coating improves effective penetration, then it cannot be a bad thing...but efficacy on bears, of all types and sizes, will remain to be seen. The average problem bear that is 3 years old and about 150-250 lbs is definitely a different animal than a 500lb plus mature bear, of any variety.
Efficacy testing on wild hogs of varying size should also be interesting to see.
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Very interesting . I think Teflon coated bullets are the ones your thinking about . not Polymer coated bullets.
 
This is a good marketing move on the part of ammo companies to expand the market by claiming to develop a product for a purpose to which it was never intended for.

Since 9mm is a caliber that is very common and popular they try to develop a bear defense load. While it may indeed be the best 9mm round designed and available for bear defense it will fall woefully short of achieving that objective. Many casual shooters however won't realize that and carry it for that purpose when a can of high capsium bear spray would be a much better option.

Look in the future for 22 long rifle bear defense ammo.:rolleyes:
 
The bottom line of this question is that the 9mm is NOT a suitable round for bear defense period....just don't do it ever...wounded bears are more dangerous than the non-wounded variety.....357 mag is even in question and likely not suitable from a revolver but certainly more powerful from a carbine....10mm? maybe slightly better than 357 with buffalo boar hard cast but do they feed in the semi auto carbines? 30-30 is an underpowered rifle for grizzly bears so why consider pistol caliber pea-shooters at all...do people just not value their lives? rant off...
 
Spokerider said:
No, I don't think it is a gimmick. Nor do I think that it is bear "defence".

What I would liken it to, is similar to poking a bear with a long stick, to get it to move along. And to be used within that parameter, it should work well enough on nuisance black bears around rural properties.

I have similar "move along bear" projectiles that work well to get a nuisance bear to keep going, and off my front yard or even off my deck.

I make hot melt glue bullets in 45-70 and use only a 209 primer for propellent. This drives the glue bullet at 500-550 fps, and will not injure or break skin. But it does make them lope away pretty quickly.
IMO, bears are incredibly smart animals. I am sure that they can and do remember us as, as they encounter us, year after year. They remember me. My wife can approach a bear in our yard, and it does not run off with any urgency. When I show up and approach the same bear.....it beetles away pretty quickly. I would bet the farm that it felt the poke of a hot melt glue bullet in the past.

I am happy to have bears around as long as they stay 50m away from my home and in the creek corridor that they like to use on my property. In fact, I enjoy seeing them.
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How do you form the glue projectiles?

What kind of distance are they effective at? Like accuracy wise?

Great idea, I think I will try it on my acreage next time a bear comes poking around:)
 
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