First long range, first scope suited to this, advice welcome

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hfx123

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Hi there not a hunter just a paper shooter. Have been doing some reading and wanted to ask for someone fairly unfamiliar with optics what is best route to go? I have a couple bdc types on rim fire but in looking for something suited to longer ranges I'm seeing moa vs mil-dot. Ffp vs sfp etc

What would serve me best to learn on? I read that Mil dot is used more and more popular but not because it is so much better than moa reticle it's just been around longer. Also regarding focal plane. What should I be looking for in these two areas to learn the ropes


Would like variable magnification so that adds some more math to the learning when working at different powers

Anyway all advice welcome
 
Here goes:

Things to ponder:

Reticle: do you want to always dial drop and wind, or do some holdovers, or both?? If so you want to click only, then a simple mildot is ok. If you want to holdover or do both, the "Christmas tree" can be more helpful. I say "can" because some hate it, and many pros will say that many many many great shots have been made with a mildot reticle.

SFP vs FFP: ongoing debate!!! A couple things are for certain. 1. FFP will always cost you more than SFP in a more or less equal scope. 2. FFP makes ranging and holdovers possible at ALL magnifications without complex head math. 3. Many FFP reticles are very small/borderline useless at low power, and some lose the lower part of the reticle at full power.

I had high hopes of learning to range quickly with my reticle. I know how to do it, but it'll take me 15-30seconds in my head to come to the answer. A laser rangefinder is pretty standard fare these days.

MRAD vs MOA:

Pick one, get good at it, and off you go. In a perfect world we'd all use meters to target and MRAD on our scopes, because they make perfect sense and work in 10's. 1MRAD @ 100M = 10cm. 1MOA at 100yards = 1.047". I use MOA because I picked it and my mind works in it, at least right now.

Cost:

You can spend anywhere from 900$ (vortex H-ST) to 6500$ (Tangent Theta). Everyone's opinion is different, but I think there are diminishing returns after about 2500-3000$. I have everything from vortex to S&B. TT is the only level/class that I haven't seen. To start there absolutely nothing wrong with vortex, or Sightron. Then there's the Bushnell XRS's, then the Nightforce NXS, then ATACR, then S&B and Vortex Razor, and US Optics, (the lines start to blurr and opinions rage in this range), then TT.

Illumination:

You don't need it.

30 vs 34mm tube:

More elevation in the 34, but a 30mm on a 20MOA rail can be just as capable.
 
I use mils because they are faster. I work in inches, yards and miles per hour. The only time I have ever thought about how big my click was at a given distance was on a blind target where I was given the height of an object above it to use as an aiming point.

You need to decide what kind of long range shooting you want to do. Saying long range shooting is like saying you want to race. That could mean formula one, or it could mean baja.

Have a look at the sticky at the top of the forum and decide which you want to do:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...e-most-common-long-range-shooting-disciplines

Otherwise, you will get conflicting answers that are all over the map.
 
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Decide on what game, sport, target you want to shoot and how far you are going to shoot.... then decide what features are best for you.

It all works... it all doesn't.

Like asking what is the best knife in the world when you are trying to drink a bowl of soup.

Define the task and budget... the PART is easy

Jerry
 
Great advice above. LR shooting is a broad term and depending on the discipline or goals, the right optic for the job also presents a broad question. What is ideal for F class is not ideal for PRS. What is ideal for BR is not ideal for either. What works to bang gongs at a couple hundred yds is much less than what a good PRS shooter needs to get through a stage on time. If the goal is tight groups on paper, an SFP high mag scope is usually best. For banging gongs at various ranges, FFP, mils and christmas tree reticles are your friend. Narrow down what you'd like to do and that will help narrow down the ideal optic for your needs.
 
kombayotch said:
I use mils because they are faster. I work in inches, yards and miles per hour. The only time I have ever thought about how big my click was at a given distance was on a blind target where I was given the height of an object above it to use as an aiming point.

You need to decide what kind of long range shooting you want to do. Saying long range shooting is like saying you want to race. That could mean formula one, or it could mean baja.

Have a look at the sticky at the top of the forum and decide which you want to do:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...e-most-common-long-range-shooting-disciplines

Otherwise, you will get conflicting answers that are all over the map.
Click to expand...

Could you run through an example of how you use Mils and inches together - pick any example - 10" target at unknown distance, lets say.

Reason I ask is that I find dividing and multiplying by 3.6 or .36 far from easy......

-J.
 
Gunneegoogoo said:
Could you run through an example of how you use Mils and inches together - pick any example - 10" target at unknown distance, lets say.

Reason I ask is that I find dividing and multiplying by 3.6 or .36 far from easy......

-J.
Click to expand...

Times your inches by 27.78 and divide by target size in mils to get distance in yards.
 
Ranging formulas are known and if you are pressed for time, you're going to use a card and not do the math on the fly.



The kind of math you are going to do on the fly is for things you can't prepare for ahead of time. Mils are faster when things start to compound; dial for one distance hold over/under for others, a wind hold added to a mover hold-off, a wind hold-off added to an urban prone offset, the correction to the improved rifleman's rule for steep angles and long distances. With mils you're dealing with smaller numbers, fewer digits after the decimal and base 10.



I have targets at 325, 450, 575 that I have to engage very quickly. I dial 1.7 mils, hold 0.8 mils (1.7-0.9) under for the 325, dead on for the 450 and 0.9 mils over (2.6-1.7) for the 575. If my game plan was to dial each shot and at some point I had to switch to holdovers with something already dialed on, I can calculate the difference much more easily on the fly with mils.

My target is at 400, moving 2.5 MPH and wind is about 7 MPH in the opposite direction the target is moving. 1.3 mil lead - 0.4 mil wind is 0.9 mil.

600 yard target (straight line), 45 degree slope. IRR says 1.7 elevation, subtract 0.3 mil correction: 1.4 mils.

Urban prone shot shifts horizontal impact 1.3 mil left, zero stop prevents horizontal correction. 0.3 mil correction for right to left wind. Hold 1.6 mils right.


The numbers you are dealing with are small and simple to do fast arithmetic around. Take the exact same situations, give two people the same data in both mils and MOA and every time the person with mils will find their solution faster. single digits are easier to deal with than numbers in the teens, 20s and 30s. 0.1s are easier to deal with than 0.25s.

Ask someone how many 0.25 clicks there are in 18.75 MOA and ask them how many 0.1 clicks there are in 9.1 mils. Which can they answer faster? And yes, you do need to count clicks if you're using night vision and your scope doesn't have MTC. Even if it does have MTC, on a mil scope you may have 8 MTC clicks to get to 1000 yards. What will it be for the same caliber on an MOA scope? 27 MTC clicks because you get them every 4 clicks instead of every 10.
 
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Yeah I understand long range is relative and different for all with experience. 1000 yds would be the reach I'm considering with lots of practice due to club I'm at, at 300 to 600 medium ranges. No game just paper and gongs at various distance. I'm not looking to compete this is more for practice and recreation and to learn. Budget for scope is 1k-1500. I'm not looking to break the bank I just want something to learn with that isn't junk
 
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bsand said:
For 1500-1000$ sightron s3. It's pretty good glass for the $$, and tracks well apparently. They also make it in FFP and mil too of I'm not mistaken.
Click to expand...

+1 on the Sightron S3 scope. It fits in your budget and for the money they are pretty darn good glass. I am very happy with my 6-24x50 S3.
 
Gunneegoogoo said:
Could you run through an example of how you use Mils and inches together - pick any example - 10" target at unknown distance, lets say.

Reason I ask is that I find dividing and multiplying by 3.6 or .36 far from easy......

-J.
Click to expand...

Mils was always faster for me, but I was taught on mils.

However in full disclosure, everyone needs a cheat, sheet data book to be precise.
A headlight is 7", a brick is 2.3, and 3 courses are 8", a man's head is 10", a car tag 6", a mailbox 6 1/4"x18 1/4", a humvee roof 72" and so on, so any of those ......x 25.4 divided by the mils you have the target bracketed=distance in meters.

So your 10" is really 254/mils bracketed=distance in meters. So if I set up, see 10"(254)/2.5 mils, I am at 101.6 or my 100m cold bore zero.

Perfect.

Or if you set up at a known distance say @ 101.6 meters you should see 2.5 mils in your scope on that 10" target.....254(10x25.4)/101.6=2.5 mils.

Perfectomundo.

Or simply do everything in ten and think in mm, cm, m, k.
 
kc34 said:
+1 on the Sightron S3 scope. It fits in your budget and for the money they are pretty darn good glass. I am very happy with my 6-24x50 S3.
Click to expand...

++, I've got a S3 6-24x50 FFP and it worked great. Even in the extreme variations of weather we had a couple weeks ago at the BCRA match.

Two guys with Vortex scopes had fogging issues. Sure they'll get warrantied, but it wasn't a great thing to have happen with another day of shooting still to go.
 
There is lots of good advice ( and lots of bad as well ) out there. One of the things I recommend is to look through as much glass as you can and to avoid buying cheap stuff - only a rich person can afford to buy cheap glass. A few years back I wrote some articles about various scopes at various price points that people found helpful - they are dated now but it is something to, perhaps, take a look at.

One of the big temptations a newer shooter may go for is to purchase what "they" use with "they" being the military or, more recently, shooters on the PRS circuit use. The problem is that "they" use glass for very specific jobs or games and their needs may not be the same as yours. An example would be the purchase by a person new to shooting of a S+B Pmii 3-12 that the USMC scout snipers use or, perhaps, any one of the very fine First Focal Plane (FFP), 34mm tubed, mil/mil and expensive scopes favored by the professional shooters on the PRS circuit - both choices are excellent for the jobs they are asked to do but if you - the new shooter - wants to punch paper at known distances and would like to see bullet holes at 300m on nice clear days then there are better choices; like, for example, a Sightron Siii 10-50x60 or going up in price either of a Nightforce NXS 8-32x56 or even a S+B Pmii 12-50x56 - all of which I own and all of which are superior to other choices that would, however, be better were I to be a PRS game player.

Good luck in your choosing and welcome to the adventure of shooting longer distance.

Bob
 
skypilot said:
Mils was always faster for me, but I was taught on mils.

However in full disclosure, everyone needs a cheat, sheet data book to be precise.
A headlight is 7", a brick is 2.3, and 3 courses are 8", a man's head is 10", a car tag 6", a mailbox 6 1/4"x18 1/4", a humvee roof 72" and so on, so any of those ......x 25.4 divided by the mils you have the target bracketed=distance in meters.

So your 10" is really 254/mils bracketed=distance in meters. So if I set up, see 10"(254)/2.5 mils, I am at 101.6 or my 100m cold bore zero.

Perfect.

Or if you set up at a known distance say @ 101.6 meters you should see 2.5 mils in your scope on that 10" target.....254(10x25.4)/101.6=2.5 mils.

Perfectomundo.

Or simply do everything in ten and think in mm, cm, m, k.
Click to expand...

The "tens" was my comment about an ideal world.....but that's seems to be non existent, at least here in NA.

Thanks to you guys with experience for sharing.
 
Yeah, its all been said. In that price range is either Sightron or Vortex. Both good. I'd advise anyone who is starting out to go with mils over moa, for all the reasons already stated.
 
At long range, a bullet's trajectory being what it is, range estimation must be quite accurate to get a centered hit.
Try this - set up something of known size at a known long range. Something really visible, clearly seen. Make it easy. Go to work with the mildots, see if you can generate the correct answer, at least within 10%.
 
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