First rifle possibility P14? Thoughts? EDIT: I BOUGHT MY FIRST RIFLE :D

[canuckbacon]

 Edit: I made a decision and finally bought myself my first rifle!!! Will post pictures below! (Apologies for the poor image quality, the light wasn't working in my storage locker so I had to kind of guess the camera focus in the dark )
*
*
*
Original post:
Hey all, I've been looking for a good first rifle, used and inexpensive that I can abuse without worry, bag a deer or two a season, all while learning about guns.

I really love military surplus, one of my dream rifles is an M1917 .30-06 Canadian issued from WW2 (family served using it).

 However

I've recently come across a sporterized P14 at my local gunstore for only $200 that's in fairly good condition! The owner is also well known and has a great standing within the local gun community and is therefore trustworthy (gunsmith, selling is guns is a secondary income to him). He even offered to add a scope mount to it for inexpensive.

Is this a good idea for a first rifle? I've looked around at prices of .303 ammo and it's basically on par if not just a hair more expensive than .30-06 ammo at the moment.

What are your thoughts?

TL;DR : Good 1st hunting rifle Yay or Nay?; Local trustworthy Gunsmith has $200 Sporterized P14 for sale, and currently .303 ammo is on par with .30-06 prices.
*
*
*
Edit 2: The rifle I finally purchased is a barely used sporterized Canadian made Lee-Enfield No.4 Mk1 * (Star) . It cycles rounds like butter, the rifling looks brand new, the only sad part is the barrel was shortened slightly and the rear sights were cut off, otherwise it seems perfect! No rust or pitting at all! The Gunsmith who sold it to me put on a brand new rear stock at no cost as the one that had been *bubba'd* on there had a cheek rest that was much too high to be able to look through the sights and it feels just so good to hold. Will be testing it at the range soon! I also purchased it for only $200!!!

 

[Buck1950]

Maybe in your area 303 is priced like 30-06, but from what I've seen out here 303 is going close to $100/box for FMJ/MS. You can get a used .308 Savage or Ruger for just a little ($4-500 range) more and have a wide selection of ammo types, often under $40/box for FMJ/MS. jmo, cause I stocked up b4 the price jumps - almost all under $40 for hunting & target grades. And 308 is plenty unless you're hunting BIG game over 500-yds, and even there possible if you learn your rifle well.

 

[bearhunter]

OP, it's an excellent "first rifle"

Do not expect it to shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yds with commercial loads, off the shelf.

There is the very odd one out there which will do it, but they are rare to say the least.

Ammo for the 303 Brit is now becoming hard to impossible to find in some shops selling ammunition.

Most, such as Cabela's, Cdn Tire and established gun stores still carry it, usually a half dozen manufacturers and a few different weight bullets.

This rifle would likely be able to shoot better with selected handloads and the "gunsmith" you allude to, likely has some on hand or at least the recipe and maybe even the dies he used to make them up.

The 303 British will do just about anything a 308 Winchesters will do, in a strong rifle, with tailored hand loads.

It's a fine and proven cartridge, capable of taking Moose, Elk, Bears and Deer reliably and cleanly IF THE SHOOTER GETS COMPETENT ENOUGH TO PUT THE BULLET IN THE RIGHT PLACE. Head shots are as often as not WOUND SHOTS and not overly ethical.

That rifle, depending on how extensively sporterised it is, will likely weigh right around ten pounds when loaded and scoped.

There have been thousands of very reliable and competent sporting rifles built on that platform.

It's proven to be very good for the job you want to use it for.

It has a #### on closing feature many folks just can't get their heads and trigger fingers around, as well as a two stage trigger, which some can't get used to.

If it's going to be you "only rifle" and you get used to these features, you won't notice it in the field.

The best advice I can give you for using this rifle in the field, is find out from the smith which hand load works best, how many shots before the bullet jacket fouling needs to be cleaned out to maintain accuracy and then make up, or purchase the factory ammo it likes in quantities you can learn to shoot it well.

I'm not talking about a single 20 round carton per year.

Another thing with these rifles is they usually shoot to a different point of impact from a cold barrel.

Many shooters make the mistake of shooting them until the barrels are too hot to touch and adjusting the scopes as the temps rise.

It will also require a few, or at least one "fouling shot" after the bore has been cleaned, even if it's only been brushed.

This is a hunting rifle, not a "match" rifle. It doesn't require extensive shooting to check possible groups for match shooting.

You will be concerned about where the first three bullets will go, from a cold barrel on a frosty morning hunt.

Rule of thumb is, If, you miss the first shot you likely won't get a second chance. If you make a non lethal hit, a second shot will be required and maybe a third. After that, unless you have good tracking skills????????????

 

[tiriaq]

I have a BSA sported P'14, upon which I installed a scope. It shoots well, would certainly work as a deer rifle. A good, sound, plain rifle.
Don't know how much shooting you have done, but a sported .303 isn't the easiest rifle to begin with.

 

[canuckbacon]

OP, it's an excellent "first rifle"

Do not expect it to shoot 1 inch groups at 100 yds with commercial loads, off the shelf.

There is the very odd one out there which will do it, but they are rare to say the least.

Ammo for the 303 Brit is now becoming hard to impossible to find in some shops selling ammunition.

Most, such as Cabela's, Cdn Tire and established gun stores still carry it, usually a half dozen manufacturers and a few different weight bullets.

This rifle would likely be able to shoot better with selected handloads and the "gunsmith" you allude to, likely has some on hand or at least the recipe and maybe even the dies he used to make them up.

The 303 British will do just about anything a 308 Winchesters will do, in a strong rifle, with tailored hand loads.

It's a fine and proven cartridge, capable of taking Moose, Elk, Bears and Deer reliably and cleanly IF THE SHOOTER GETS COMPETENT ENOUGH TO PUT THE BULLET IN THE RIGHT PLACE. Head shots are as often as not WOUND SHOTS and not overly ethical.

That rifle, depending on how extensively sporterised it is, will likely weigh right around ten pounds when loaded and scoped.

There have been thousands of very reliable and competent sporting rifles built on that platform.

It's proven to be very good for the job you want to use it for.

It has a #### on closing feature many folks just can't get their heads and trigger fingers around, as well as a two stage trigger, which some can't get used to.

If it's going to be you "only rifle" and you get used to these features, you won't notice it in the field.

The best advice I can give you for using this rifle in the field, is find out from the smith which hand load works best, how many shots before the bullet jacket fouling needs to be cleaned out to maintain accuracy and then make up, or purchase the factory ammo it likes in quantities you can learn to shoot it well.

I'm not talking about a single 20 round carton per year.

Another thing with these rifles is they usually shoot to a different point of impact from a cold barrel.

Many shooters make the mistake of shooting them until the barrels are too hot to touch and adjusting the scopes as the temps rise.

It will also require a few, or at least one "fouling shot" after the bore has been cleaned, even if it's only been brushed.

This is a hunting rifle, not a "match" rifle. It doesn't require extensive shooting to check possible groups for match shooting.

You will be concerned about where the first three bullets will go, from a cold barrel on a frosty morning hunt.

Rule of thumb is, If, you miss the first shot you likely won't get a second chance. If you make a non lethal hit, a second shot will be required and maybe a third. After that, unless you have good tracking skills????????????

I very much appreciate the lengthy and detailed response! This is the info I was looking for if it's still for sale by my next pay day I'm definitely going to get it.

I know a few guys who do their own custom loads I may buy the bulk components and ask them to do it until I've gathered the tools to do it myself

As for the action the cocking-on-closing is my favorite, it feels so much more natural to me than a mauser action. And to be honest I hate the feeling of how gritty someone those can be. The smoothest actions I've ever personally encountered have been Enfield pattern rifles, Mauser brand rifles and a Tika T3x.

 

[canuckbacon]

I have a BSA sported P'14, upon which I installed a scope. It shoots well, would certainly work as a deer rifle. A good, sound, plain rifle.
Don't know how much shooting you have done, but a sported .303 isn't the easiest rifle to begin with.

I have some experience with my cousin's No4 Mk1 Lee Enfield, his .308 Mauser M18 and a friend's SKS "French Tickler" (weirdest name for a gun honestly)

 

[tiriaq]

OK, you know what it is like to shoot a .303 with the characteristic low comb. A scope will make it seem even lower...
My sported P'14 will hold groups in the 2 1/2" range at 100m with Winchester 180gr softpoint ammunition. Hardly a tack driver, but that will handle any Ontario deer hunting.
I suppose that the SKS nickname comes from the ribbed handguard...

 

[jethunter]

Hey all, I've been looking for a good first rifle, used and inexpensive that I can abuse without worry, bag a deer or two a season, all while learning about guns.

I really love military surplus, one of my dream rifles is an M1917 .30-06 Canadian issued from WW2 (family served using it).

 However

I've recently come across a sporterized P14 at my local gunstore for only $200 that's in fairly good condition! The owner is also well known and has a great standing within the local gun community and is therefore trustworthy (gunsmith, selling is guns is a secondary income to him). He even offered to add a scope mount to it for inexpensive.

Is this a good idea for a first rifle? I've looked around at prices of .303 ammo and it's basically on par if not just a hair more expensive than .30-06 ammo at the moment.

What are your thoughts?

TL;DR : Good 1st hunting rifle Yay or Nay?; Local trustworthy Gunsmith has $200 Sporterized P14 for sale, and currently .303 ammo is on par with .30-06 prices.

The P14 is fairly heavy. 303 ammo is very pricey around here.

It's a good action but keep in mind most examples are well beyond the century mark and as such many of them have been subject to various degrees of corrosion, wear, abuse, neglect, and Bubba. That said - if the price is right and you like it, then go for it. You only need to please yourself when you buy a rifle.

 

[Potashminer]

OP, you will find there were three makers of the P14 - all factories were in the USA, although the rifles were made for Great Britain, at the time - made during the first half of WWI - is the only time they were made, anywhere - there might have been as many as 100 made pre-WWI at Enfield Armoury in England, but none, at all, manufactured after 1917. Some parts do NOT interchange among makers, but many parts do - also some parts from Lee Enfield No. 1 or the Model of 1917 (P17, for some) will also fit and work well - I would guess they were VERY popular when they were sold off as surplus following WWII - I think some wholesalers were buying them by the pound. The P14 is overly built for the 303 British cartridge - originally, it was the P13, designed for the longer 276 Enfield cartridge - hurriedly modified to use 303 British when war with Germany appeared inevitable Britain - again, hurriedly modified in USA, to become the P17 that many USA soldiers used in WWI.

Lots of the action is similar to a Mauser 98, except the P14 allows a user to "push feed" - drop a cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt - you can read instruction to USA soldiers to do just that with their P17's. It is "controlled round feed", when fed from the magazine - original design was to load 5 rounds at a time, into the internal magazine, using the same chargers used in the various Lee Enfield rifles. You will not be able to "push feed" with a Mauser, unless the forward edge of the extractor has been beveled, which militaries did not do.

 

[MiG25]

The BSA Sporters are nice rifles if that is what it is (the rear sight "ears" will have been milled off and the BSA stacked rifle logo applied. Locally a few flavours of 303 ammo are on the shelves, $60-80/box.

If you like it, get it. And then hold out for your Dream Rifle.

 

[canuckbacon]

OP, you will find there were three makers of the P14 - all factories were in the USA, although the rifles were made for Great Britain, at the time - made during the first half of WWI - is the only time they were made, anywhere - there might have been as many as 100 made pre-WWI at Enfield Armoury in England, but none, at all, manufactured after 1917. Some parts do NOT interchange among makers, but many parts do - also some parts from Lee Enfield No. 1 or the Model of 1917 (P17, for some) will also fit and work well - I would guess they were VERY popular when they were sold off as surplus following WWII - I think some wholesalers were buying them by the pound. The P14 is overly built for the 303 British cartridge - originally, it was the P13, designed for the longer 276 Enfield cartridge - hurriedly modified to use 303 British when war with Germany appeared inevitable Britain - again, hurriedly modified in USA, to become the P17 that many USA soldiers used in WWI.

Lots of the action is similar to a Mauser 98, except the P14 allows a user to "push feed" - drop a cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt - you can read instruction to USA soldiers to do just that with their P17's. It is "controlled round feed", when fed from the magazine - original design was to load 5 rounds at a time, into the internal magazine, using the same chargers used in the various Lee Enfield rifles. You will not be able to "push feed" with a Mauser, unless the forward edge of the extractor has been beveled, which militaries did not do.

I believe it is a Winchester late-war production, I'm going to have to recheck the serial number. It also looked like it might have been sporterized for civilian re-sale as the stock looks original and well modified as well as the barrel has not been chopped and sights are original

 

[cosmic]

It should serve you well, assuming the bore is in decent shape (a lot arent). The P14 can be a bit picky regarding the type of ammo it likes to feed. Also, like mausers, the shell must be chambered from the mag. Finally, you can get a no drill scope mount from the likes of S+K in the states...

 

[oneadam12]

It’s a bombproof rifle and will be sufficient for any purpose you want to put it to. It was a common candidate for conversion to 300 Win Mag once the bore wore out. As others have said they are very long in the tooth so inspect it carefully. Anything in 303 benefits greatly from hand loading but for hunting distances it should be fine after a good cleaning and copper solvent.

 

[tiriaq]

I believe it is a Winchester late-war production, I'm going to have to recheck the serial number. It also looked like it might have been sporterized for civilian re-sale as the stock looks original and well modified as well as the barrel has not been chopped and sights are original

There are no late-war P'14s. Production was terminated during the war, and the factories transitioned to manufacture of the US M1917 in .30-06.

 

[canuckbacon]

There are no late-war P'14s. Production was terminated during the war, and the factories transitioned to manufacture of the US M1917 in .30-06.

The production methods changed in 1916 to help standardize and make it more reliable by increasing the length of the bolt lugs and deepening the recesses (I believe Winchester had already started that earlier)

 

[bearhunter]

OP, you will find there were three makers of the P14 - all factories were in the USA, although the rifles were made for Great Britain, at the time - made during the first half of WWI - is the only time they were made, anywhere - there might have been as many as 100 made pre-WWI at Enfield Armoury in England, but none, at all, manufactured after 1917. Some parts do NOT interchange among makers, but many parts do - also some parts from Lee Enfield No. 1 or the Model of 1917 (P17, for some) will also fit and work well - I would guess they were VERY popular when they were sold off as surplus following WWII - I think some wholesalers were buying them by the pound. The P14 is overly built for the 303 British cartridge - originally, it was the P13, designed for the longer 276 Enfield cartridge - hurriedly modified to use 303 British when war with Germany appeared inevitable Britain - again, hurriedly modified in USA, to become the P17 that many USA soldiers used in WWI.

Lots of the action is similar to a Mauser 98, except the P14 allows a user to "push feed" - drop a cartridge into the chamber and close the bolt - you can read instruction to USA soldiers to do just that with their P17's. It is "controlled round feed", when fed from the magazine - original design was to load 5 rounds at a time, into the internal magazine, using the same chargers used in the various Lee Enfield rifles. You will not be able to "push feed" with a Mauser, unless the forward edge of the extractor has been beveled, which militaries did not do.

You're right about the P14 and P17 only being made during the WWI, UK and US contracts, but Remington made a sporter version of the type later.

Remington 725

 

[conor_90]

The 725 was a part of the pre 700 push feed 721/722 series. You are thinking of the model 30 which became the 720, an improved p17

 

[Leeper]

Fifty years ago, I would have said, Great choice! Of course, I would have expected it to go for about 35 bucks. Today, I would pass on it in favour of almost anything else. Back in the day, a 303 was cheap to buy and cheap to feed. Not so much anymore. I know, I have four of them.

 

[bearhunter]

The 725 was a part of the pre 700 push feed 721/722 series. You are thinking of the model 30 which became the 720, an improved p17

The 725 has a similar safety, which stuck in my mind, you're right, it was the Model 30 which Remington made using the machinery they had on hand, with mods of course.

 

[tiriaq]

I suspect it was more the great inventory of parts on hand that resulted in the Model 30 and its descendants. I've never seen one, but apparently the 720 was a really fine rifle.
As far as left over parts go, the Ruger 77 used M1917 extractors for the first production run, while Ruger was working out how to manufacture the extractors.
P'14/M1917 production volume was remarkable. There is a video of them being manufactured.