FL sized brass wont eject

moosehunter

moosehunter

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I just ran all my 6.5-284 brass through the Redding FL body die and now a lot of them wont extract. All chambers nice but the extractor wont pick up a bunch of them. When fired will they expand into the extractor?
 
Probably yes - hows that for an answer.. (You dont mention the type of rifle)
If the case is too undersize, relative to the chamber, then the extractor simply pushes the case forward, rather than engaging it. Suggest you compare a sized case to a fired case.
If you've undersized the cases too much, it can be the equivalent of excessive headspace...
 
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I'm not clear on your problem, is the case going in so far the extractor groove passes the extractor or is the case sticking in the chamber so that the extractor jumps the groove?

Because of what you've done to get to this point, it is likely the former in which case you probably pushed the shoulder back too far so that the case is going in too far.

If this is the case you've lost your head spacing so you will have to fire form the cases to salvage them.

If this is the case, I would cut back from your regular load and seat the bullets out so they engage the grooves and hold the case against the bolt for purpose of reforming the cases.

You may have encountered a situation where the chamber being cut by one person and the dies being cut by another, don't quite match. Not uncommon with wild cats.
 
moosehunter said:
I think its probably going in to far. When I push it bout with the cleaning rod theres no sticking or resistance.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you have a serious problem. It would appear you have pushed the shoulder back and created quite a bit of headspace or something is wrong with your extractor. If you fire these cases with excessive headspace that will weaken the case at the least or possibly cause a head separation.

Normally if the bolt is hard to close and it is a shoulder length problem, the case you are trying does extract easily. If it is a base diameter problem causing the hard closing of the bolt, then that case will also be hard to extract.

Which way were your cases before you sized them all more?..... it is quite possible you have just sized them too much... If you have, you can fix it by expanding the necks to create a "false" shoulder and then size them the correct amount. It is very important to correctly fireform brass the case be held to the rear by a shoulder... jamming a bullet into the rifling will not hold a case back for fireforming.
 
Rich McFarlane said:
If this is the case, I would cut back from your regular load and seat the bullets out so they engage the grooves and hold the case against the bolt for purpose of reforming the cases.
Click to expand...


Jamming a bullet into the rifling won't hold the case back... when the firing pin hits the primer, the case will be driven ahead and stop on what ever shoulder there is, and as the pressure builds up the case will stretch ahead of the web weakening the case.
 
guntech said:
Jamming a bullet into the rifling won't hold the case back... when the firing pin hits the primer, the case will be driven ahead and stop on what ever shoulder there is, and as the pressure builds up the case will stretch ahead of the web weakening the case.
Click to expand...

Dennis! You want to rethink this? Works for me.
 
Try setting the resising die down to just touch or barely clear the shell holder. The 6.5 /284 and most cartridges with little taper don't like partial resiseing, it bulges the case toward the base.

I have seen this happen in a 280 ackley, and a .243 win. lately. Try it ,I will bet it will work.
 
moosehunter said:
I just ran all my 6.5-284 brass through the Redding FL body die and now a lot of them wont extract. All chambers nice but the extractor wont pick up a bunch of them. When fired will they expand into the extractor?
Click to expand...
A couple of questions.
1. Are they full length resized, or partially sized?
2. Is your extractor a Sako type?
3. Is the headspace correct?
bigbull
 
Rich McFarlane said:
Dennis! You want to rethink this? Works for me.
Click to expand...

It is a common belief that you can fire form using bullet jam but I was told about 37 years ago by a gunsmithing instructor who worked with P.O. Ackley for years, that bullet jam is not a reliable way to correctly form brass. I have seen other very knowledgable shooters express the same opinion - especially when it comes to accuracy and brass life.

It may "work" for you ... the differences between jamming a bullet for fireforming and actually having a shoulder causing a tight fit are small when the headspace is small, and greater when the headspace is larger. The case is weakend though if the case stretches rather than the shoulder blowing forward. Neck tension on the bullet is easily overcome by 28 pound firing pin springs driving the pin forward. It is like tapping the bullet into the case with a light hammer.

It can be demonstrated quite easily by creating a lot of headspace and jamming the bullet out and fire forming the case, and then recreate the headspace with that fired case and use it again using bullet jam to fire form it... keep repeating this and you will get a head separation.

You would not get a head separation if jamming the bullet out for fire forming held the case back against the bolt face, the headspace you created each time would simply blow the shoulder forward not weakening the case...but it doesn't, the case will be stretched just ahead of the web each time and eventually fail there.
 
Jeez! Fourty odd years of reloading and wildcatting and I've really been only hallucinating all this time.

Somebody that knew somebody who knows somebody that knew somebody said something that contradicts my experience so I'm wrong.

Well I think not!

One thing I've learned over the years is that shooters always have diverse opinions on how to address a problem. While we usually take the advice of a mentor early on, the techniques we have today are here because we all eventually strive for different ways to solve a problem. There is no such thing as there is only one way to do something.

Up front and early on I expressed a way the problem could be attacked but I know it is not the only way, but it is the easiest to explain.

Another option was given to 'expand the necks to create a false shoulder' but no instructions were given. So how useful is that info?
 
Rich McFarlane said:
Jeez! Fourty odd years of reloading and wildcatting and I've really been only hallucinating all this time.

Somebody that knew somebody who knows somebody that knew somebody said something that contradicts my experience so I'm wrong.

Well I think not!

One thing I've learned over the years is that shooters always have diverse opinions on how to address a problem. While we usually take the advice of a mentor early on, the techniques we have today are here because we all eventually strive for different ways to solve a problem. There is no such thing as there is only one way to do something.

Up front and early on I expressed a way the problem could be attacked but I know it is not the only way, but it is the easiest to explain.

Another option was given to 'expand the necks to create a false shoulder' but no instructions were given. So how useful is that info?
Click to expand...

"Somebody that knew somebody who knows somebody that knew somebody said something that contradicts my experience so I'm wrong."

The "somebodys" were P.O. Ackley ( I assume you know of him) and William Prator (Gunsmithing instructor for 25 years and worked with P.O. Ackley).

If I have offended you I apologise. It was not my intent.

Your method of jamming the bullet will work if there is very little headspace and if you are not concerned with the very little stretching of the case that will take place. You will end up with a fire formed cartridge.

What I stated is factual and can be demonstrated.

To create a "false" shoulder to hold the case firmly against the bolt face when fire forming, first expand the neck diameter of the case larger than the chamber dimensions, then carefully size it until you can just close the stripped bolt feeling the case firmly at the bottom of the throw. This will insure the case is held against the bolt face on firing and will ensure the case does expand without any stretching at the web area.
 
GUNTECH wrote
The "somebodys" were P.O. Ackley ( I assume you know of him)
Not everybody gets a boner at the sound of that name...Lots of folk compare his inventions recreations of cartridges already in existance..Every time I hear the abrev A.I. I automatically assume that theres a common round out there that will do the same or better and that to notice any slight advantage with his over the orig I'm usually into heavier projectiles...No,he aint no Roy Weatherby
 
Im not sure on the extractor type. Its a PGW M15. They are FL sized and the headspace is .000". I ran all my brass through last night and its only 6 that wont extract. They are obviously a few thou shorter than the rest at the shoulder. Im going to try the neck jam with bullseye and some wadding on them.
 
blindside said:
GUNTECH wrote
The "somebodys" were P.O. Ackley ( I assume you know of him)
Not everybody gets a boner at the sound of that name...Lots of folk compare his inventions recreations of cartridges already in existance..Every time I hear the abrev A.I. I automatically assume that theres a common round out there that will do the same or better and that to notice any slight advantage with his over the orig I'm usually into heavier projectiles...No,he aint no Roy Weatherby
Click to expand...

You have a problem if you get a boner by hearing anyone's name! :D

I think most people when they hear the name Ackley only relate it to the idea of an improved blown out cartridge. They have no idea of the experimentation he did and facts that were established in action strength and cartridge developement because of his work. A lot of modern cartridge designs today reflect Ackley developements and ideas.

I would bet more members on this forum would recognize the name Roy Weatherby more than the name Parker Ackley simply because Roy Weatherby successfully marketed a product still being sold today and it is much more visible due to that marketing.
 
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