I use the same few Redding dies as you do i. three different calibers , and you are taking what people say right out of context into left field .
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Flyers during load dev
- Thread starter MartyK2500
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F/L sizing by definition
A FL die bumps the shoulder, sizes the neck, and slightly resizes the "tapered" body while your case is fully supported - perfectly concentric in one die. When full length resizing is done properly, it delivers accuracy, improved case life, and reliable chambering.
Full length resizing means having - .001” to - .002” clearance at the shoulder. This requires "measuring" the clearance that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular rifle. Then you can set your FL resizing die to "accurately" and consistently bump your case shoulder.
Here is another video this one shows how to measure the amt of bump (shoulder sizing)
Cheers
Trevor
P.S.
There is only one company that has shoulder bump die and that is Forester. all others have body dies and the common terminology is to bump the shoulder; it is the easiest step to measure... you shortened the case by xx. measuring other areas after sizing like the the taper is more difficult.
A FL die bumps the shoulder, sizes the neck, and slightly resizes the "tapered" body while your case is fully supported - perfectly concentric in one die. When full length resizing is done properly, it delivers accuracy, improved case life, and reliable chambering.
Full length resizing means having - .001” to - .002” clearance at the shoulder. This requires "measuring" the clearance that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular rifle. Then you can set your FL resizing die to "accurately" and consistently bump your case shoulder.
Here is another video this one shows how to measure the amt of bump (shoulder sizing)
Cheers
Trevor
P.S.
There is only one company that has shoulder bump die and that is Forester. all others have body dies and the common terminology is to bump the shoulder; it is the easiest step to measure... you shortened the case by xx. measuring other areas after sizing like the the taper is more difficult.
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Thanks for posting the follow up video Trevor. It's good that you clarified that point.
Now I'd like to see how much side wall resizing you are doing with the FL die you are using.
You can make a gage by chamber reaming a hole into a surface ground steel plate, then drill it from the front to clear out the neck and shoulder.
Drop a fired and resized case in and measure how high the base of the case protrudes between the two.
This is the method I used to measure how much I needed to polish my custom sizing die.
Now I'd like to see how much side wall resizing you are doing with the FL die you are using.
You can make a gage by chamber reaming a hole into a surface ground steel plate, then drill it from the front to clear out the neck and shoulder.
Drop a fired and resized case in and measure how high the base of the case protrudes between the two.
This is the method I used to measure how much I needed to polish my custom sizing die.
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I use custom dies and head space gauges
The way i measure side wall
take a pair of calipers and measure just below the shoulder body junction (lock the calipers). resize the case; using the calipers see how far they side down. The calipers should move no more then 1/8 from your initial measurement at the shoulder body junction...
Cheers
Trevor
That's exactly the answer I've been looking for and I wish you stated that in your original video.
I knew that was what you must have been doing, but that is not how most people would have interpreted your video, and why so much controversy.
Most people probably assumed you meant FL resize with off the shelf RCBS dies, or Redding bushing dies at best.
Sounds like you're doing exactly what I've been doing for F Class for about 12 or more years, now that you've provided more clarity.
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I am not understanding your stmt.
you don't need custom dies to F/L size your brass nor do you need to measure body taper like i do.
someone earlier in this thread suggested to neck size only.
neck sizing comes with a series of potential problems which can all be avoided if you F/L size. the first video covered all of the points
the goal was to provide an informative video on the pitfalls of neck sizing (only) and the benefits of F/L sizing
Cheers
Trevor
you don't need custom dies to F/L size your brass nor do you need to measure body taper like i do.
someone earlier in this thread suggested to neck size only.
neck sizing comes with a series of potential problems which can all be avoided if you F/L size. the first video covered all of the points
the goal was to provide an informative video on the pitfalls of neck sizing (only) and the benefits of F/L sizing
Cheers
Trevor
It was probably me who suggested to neck size only, but understand the context of that statement. I'm not suggesting that to be the long game, but it is effective in eliminating variables during load development and evaluation, particularly when prior results have been disappointing.
If you cannot get a fire formed and neck only resized case to shoot accurately, (during load development) then you have bigger problems.
Once we are happy with the results achieved, then go ahead and start introducing a minor shoulder bump and see if performance degrades or not, or what effect that may have.
Obviously for reasons explained in your video and regardless of whether or not we like the results of FL vs neck only, for reliability we need a slight shoulder bump... slight.
The problem for guys who don't have custom sizing dies is they may get more side wall resizing than they realize and that may degrade accuracy or SD, which is really the same thing. It will also affect max powder charge.
There’s nothing at all wrong with standard dies. They don’t leave anything on the table.
I’ve done nothing but full length size with off the shelf dies, albeit with a two step process, body die, then neck die, since I started.
My rifle shoots in the .1s for me. I shot a .115” 4 shot group at 300 yards not long ago and followed is up with a .22moa group at the same distance, and it wasn’t the dies that made it open up. Even my wife hammers sub quarter inch groups at 100 yards with it.
I’ve done nothing but full length size with off the shelf dies, albeit with a two step process, body die, then neck die, since I started.
My rifle shoots in the .1s for me. I shot a .115” 4 shot group at 300 yards not long ago and followed is up with a .22moa group at the same distance, and it wasn’t the dies that made it open up. Even my wife hammers sub quarter inch groups at 100 yards with it.
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Here's an update on my Savage 110 Elite Precision .308 . As discussed ( at great length ) , performance with the 175 SMK was initially quite disappointing . Fliers , fliers and more fliers . I tried every load combination that even reasonably made sense . Scope change , powder change , etc , etc . No joy .
I had been testing on a bench off a sandbag ( that worked great with my long range .223 ) . It just seemed so strange that a rifle at this price point shooting good ammo would perform so inconsistently . I had a similar initial experience when tuning a new R700 Milspec .308 . Then , it dawned on me . What's the same with these two rifle systems ? The sandbag setup and the actual range / bench . So , just to disprove a theory , I decided to go to a different range facility and try shooting prone off a bipod . Now , due to a serious , permanent back injury , my prone skills are poor as shooting in pain is not that enjoyable . However , the 175 SMK results were quite different . I really intended to just get a 100M zero and call it a day , but , decided to shoot 3 , 4 shot groups to see what happened . Group 1 , .364MOA , group 2 , .209MOA and group 3 , .173MOA . Now , three , 4 shot groups at 100M prove very little , but , that's a marked improvement . So , was it the sandbag ? Was it movement in the bench ? Was it blind luck ? Who the F knows ? I will try this again at longer range in the next couple of days to see what happens . For the record , 175 SMK , 43.0 Varget , Lapua SRP brass ( fully prepped ) , BR4 primers , .020 off , .001 runout . The Elite Precision saga continues
I had been testing on a bench off a sandbag ( that worked great with my long range .223 ) . It just seemed so strange that a rifle at this price point shooting good ammo would perform so inconsistently . I had a similar initial experience when tuning a new R700 Milspec .308 . Then , it dawned on me . What's the same with these two rifle systems ? The sandbag setup and the actual range / bench . So , just to disprove a theory , I decided to go to a different range facility and try shooting prone off a bipod . Now , due to a serious , permanent back injury , my prone skills are poor as shooting in pain is not that enjoyable . However , the 175 SMK results were quite different . I really intended to just get a 100M zero and call it a day , but , decided to shoot 3 , 4 shot groups to see what happened . Group 1 , .364MOA , group 2 , .209MOA and group 3 , .173MOA . Now , three , 4 shot groups at 100M prove very little , but , that's a marked improvement . So , was it the sandbag ? Was it movement in the bench ? Was it blind luck ? Who the F knows ? I will try this again at longer range in the next couple of days to see what happens . For the record , 175 SMK , 43.0 Varget , Lapua SRP brass ( fully prepped ) , BR4 primers , .020 off , .001 runout . The Elite Precision saga continues
It was likely you, in so much as, you can't drive the rifle the same way sitting beside it at a bench as you can laying behind it prone. It's difficult to load the bipod, and pull the rifle into you at the same time on a bench unless you're standing directly behind it, almost laying on the bench. I hate shooting off a bench for that very reason, but, it's a good point of reference to know what to expect from the gun and make the requisite modifications to mitigate it.
Here's an update on my Savage 110 Elite Precision .308 . As discussed ( at great length ) , performance with the 175 SMK was initially quite disappointing . Fliers , fliers and more fliers . I tried every load combination that even reasonably made sense . Scope change , powder change , etc , etc . No joy .
I had been testing on a bench off a sandbag ( that worked great with my long range .223 ) . It just seemed so strange that a rifle at this price point shooting good ammo would perform so inconsistently . I had a similar initial experience when tuning a new R700 Milspec .308 . Then , it dawned on me . What's the same with these two rifle systems ? The sandbag setup and the actual range / bench . So , just to disprove a theory , I decided to go to a different range facility and try shooting prone off a bipod . Now , due to a serious , permanent back injury , my prone skills are poor as shooting in pain is not that enjoyable . However , the 175 SMK results were quite different . I really intended to just get a 100M zero and call it a day , but , decided to shoot 3 , 4 shot groups to see what happened . Group 1 , .364MOA , group 2 , .209MOA and group 3 , .173MOA . Now , three , 4 shot groups at 100M prove very little , but , that's a marked improvement . So , was it the sandbag ? Was it movement in the bench ? Was it blind luck ? Who the F knows ? I will try this again at longer range in the next couple of days to see what happens . For the record , 175 SMK , 43.0 Varget , Lapua SRP brass ( fully prepped ) , BR4 primers , .020 off , .001 runout . The Elite Precision saga continues
In my case, I shoot just as well off a bench than prone on the ground.
Given that the bench is made of concrete.
Here is a recent 5 shot group at 200yds,
Yeah, in my case, the factory barrel definitely was the issue!
Your recipe shoots very well in any 308 I’ve ever tried, it gives federal 175 GMM velocities, and known to shoot well in anything.
Edit, picture turned sideways for some reason...
