fn ps90
- Thread starter toomanymachines
- Start date
Ceska said:
I think he was talking about 7.62x25. But that doesn't make his statement any more correct.
The FN SS192 weighs 28 grains. The 7.62x25 weighs 85 grains. That's more than double the weight. I believe that the formula is double the weight, gives 4 times the momentum for a given velocity? I'm probably wrong, but physics was never my strong point.
I recall reading about a case where Ilich Ramirez Sanchez (aka Carlos the Jackal) shot a french police officer with a CZ-52 in 7.62x25 prior to evading capture. The bullet went right through the cop, the floor he was lying on, the dinner table of the people having dinner, in the apartment beneath, their floor and lodged in the floor of the next apartment down. I'd like to see the 5.7 do that.
Regardless of momentum, ballistics studies show that 5.7x28, while it does an ok job of penetrating body armour, has performance in soft tissue, roughly akin to 22 Magnum. So it's utility is certainly limited. If you just want to shoot paper and have an interesting piece, go crazy. But from the standpoint of defensive use or offensive use, in the words of Lcdr Gary Roberts, who is a leading expert in wound ballistics research," issuance of this cartridge is a good way to ensure mission failure."
Further to my previous post, I found this by Dr Gary Roberts on Tactical Forums.
"Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol. Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.
I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4?s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP?s fired from our duty 1911?s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.
--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: ?Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: ?Personal Defense Weapons?Answer in Search of a Question?, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts
?Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant?, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.
--Roberts ?Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.?, AFTE Journal. In Press.
The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......
Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system."
Again I'm not saying don't buy one, I'm sure they'd be a blast to shoot. But don't expect miracles. It won't deliver
"Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol. Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.
I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4?s. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP?s fired from our duty 1911?s crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.
Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.
--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: ?Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: ?Personal Defense Weapons?Answer in Search of a Question?, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts
?Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant?, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.--Roberts
?Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.?, AFTE Journal. In Press.The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......
Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system."
Again I'm not saying don't buy one, I'm sure they'd be a blast to shoot. But don't expect miracles. It won't deliver
- Location
- Ontario, Kanada
For all those interested in this theres a great article about the PS90 in the new Shotgun News magazine, i bought it the other day and its a good read...
www.fivesevenforum.com
This is the best way to talk with real 5.7 owners and learn about this new cartridge. Personnaly, I think that 4.6 and 5.7 are the future of handgun ammos. I just want a FN57.
This is the best way to talk with real 5.7 owners and learn about this new cartridge. Personnaly, I think that 4.6 and 5.7 are the future of handgun ammos. I just want a FN57.
GrensVegter
CGN Regular
- Location
- North Vancouver
The 5.7x28 was not made from necking down the 7.92x33, It has a rim dia that is only shared with the 4.6x30 and 8mm blanks
Well if everything works out I may be able to tell you what it is like to have one.. I have the ball rolling on importing one.. just too bad they have a long waiting list for them. I should be able to let you know in a couple of months.
It may have a lack of penetration on a liquid medium...yes, although I personally saw a 5.7 penetrate 48 layers of kevlar and 1/8 inch thick sheet of titanium from 100m.
I also saw a P90 fire a whole mag in one burst ,all trace ,and all rounds landed on a tactical ted rubber dummy from 15-20m away.When I had a look at the dummy ,which is made from rubber with foam in the middle, there were tiny pin prick entry holes and every single round exited the back of the dummy sideways.It was nasty.I'm sure the rounds would tear the ass out of you badly.A single round might not stop someone,but a burst more than likely would.
....and no ,this wasn't on stargate
I also saw a P90 fire a whole mag in one burst ,all trace ,and all rounds landed on a tactical ted rubber dummy from 15-20m away.When I had a look at the dummy ,which is made from rubber with foam in the middle, there were tiny pin prick entry holes and every single round exited the back of the dummy sideways.It was nasty.I'm sure the rounds would tear the ass out of you badly.A single round might not stop someone,but a burst more than likely would.
....and no ,this wasn't on stargate
Longshot said:It may have a lack of penetration on a liquid medium...yes, although I personally saw a 5.7 penetrate 48 layers of kevlar and 1/8 inch thick sheet of titanium from 100m.
I also saw a P90 fire a whole mag in one burst ,all trace ,and all rounds landed on a tactical ted rubber dummy from 15-20m away.When I had a look at the dummy ,which is made from rubber with foam in the middle, there were tiny pin prick entry holes and every single round exited the back of the dummy sideways.It was nasty.I'm sure the rounds would tear the ass out of you badly.A single round might not stop someone,but a burst more than likely would.
....and no ,this wasn't on stargate
LIAR, I saw that episode...your hair looked mighty fine I might add, but what was up with the t!ts.
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
I'm still at a loss to understand how these things are available to civilians in the US. Surely they're caught by the import ban on semi-auto rifles that use LCMM mags? The only way around it would be to manufacture nearly the whole rifle in the US.
Even if a lot of the parts are made in the US, the barrels and receivers of non-importable firearms are expressly banned from import for sale to civilians under 18 USC 925(d)(3), so they can't even import them and assemble them in a US plant.
Which brings me to my next point - if that SIG Arms 556 prototype rifle is actually representative of what SIG Arms is going to make, it uses a receiver and barrel made in Switzerland, so have they actually thought of that? Given all the hassle ATF have been giving me lately on import permits I just cannot fathom how they're going to get those parts into the US because the rifle itself is clearly banned from import. The upper receiver is the controlled part on a SG550 and that's made in Switzerland going by the pics I've seen, as well as the barrel, which is also expressly banned from import.
Have private individuals in the US (not dealers, they can stock them for LE sales) actually got PS90s yet?
Even if a lot of the parts are made in the US, the barrels and receivers of non-importable firearms are expressly banned from import for sale to civilians under 18 USC 925(d)(3), so they can't even import them and assemble them in a US plant.
Which brings me to my next point - if that SIG Arms 556 prototype rifle is actually representative of what SIG Arms is going to make, it uses a receiver and barrel made in Switzerland, so have they actually thought of that? Given all the hassle ATF have been giving me lately on import permits I just cannot fathom how they're going to get those parts into the US because the rifle itself is clearly banned from import. The upper receiver is the controlled part on a SG550 and that's made in Switzerland going by the pics I've seen, as well as the barrel, which is also expressly banned from import.
Have private individuals in the US (not dealers, they can stock them for LE sales) actually got PS90s yet?
- Location
- Calgary, Alberta
Well, in the pics I've seen of them they clearly have: "FN HERSTAL BELGIUM" stamped on the side, so I'm really at a loss to understand it.
I think the FS2000 looks more interesting.
I think the FS2000 looks more interesting.
