Fouling shots, how many????

surfclod

surfclod

CGN frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
46   0   0
Location
S.E Saskatchewan
Its been a few years since I was into precision shooting mode & mindset so forgive me if this is an elementary question.



However I am wondering how many shots a person ought to take (out of a clean cold bore) before you get serious about measuring groups???


And.....part II of the question;

............................ will a factory barrel potentially require more rounds fired than decent quality aftermarket (that has been hand lapped) before it "settles in"???



This comes to mind because I have been testing a newly purchased (used) rifle. Right after I got it I shot about 6 rounds just to zero the scope, (only 3 round groups I know :p but one was 1-1/4", other was 7/8", resting on truck), not a great test but it indicated some sub-MOA potential.

Afterwards I then gave it a thorough cleaning (using a Bore guide, Dewey rod, and Wipeout with Accelerator) and, went to work on the stock. First I stiffened the forearm with a piece of aluminum (to ensure the barrel was truly "free floated") ,and removed some material around the action screws (to ensure the only the recoil lug was bearing, laterally, on the stock) .

A few weeks later, still just using factory ammo, I shot another 6 rounds. (I know, six rounds are statistically insignificant but I am currently in a severe budget crunch:rolleyes:).

Shot #1 -----------1" left
Shot #2------------1" high & 1/4" left
Shot #3------------1/2" high
Shot #4-6----------centered, all touching (5/8" c-c)

So my pipe dream is that I have a factory barrel that is capable of sub-MOA accuracy using factory ammo, but in reality I am wondering how many fouling shots I ought to have down the tube before I consider it a real test???
 
Cleaning is over-rated. If this is a hunting rifle, every one of those first 3 shots would have killed or at least scared the #### out of a even the smallest critter at 100 yards.
During competition I always wonder why guys will clean their barrels like crazy every night, then shoot 1-5 fouling shots to make it shoot POA again. Sorry to pick on the F'ers here.
Most barrels will go a long way before the groups open up and need to be cleaned. I had one barrel that had over 800 rounds down the barrel (still won the weekend agg) before I cleaned it. And the only reason I did clean it was because I had 2 big matches coming up.
 
On a factory rifle it could be any number of things if proper bedding and everything else hasn't already been properly dealt with.
5 rounds should usually be enough, .22lr can take many, many more when starting with a clean barrel.
I don't clean barrels much either, kinda see how it does and if I change components then I'll do a fresh start.
 
I'm no precision shooter per se, and I tend to clean my firearms after each outing, but I started to notice that about 3 rounds were needed before things settled in. I agree with Maynard, I wouldn't bother if it was a hunting rifle as all shots would have been fine, but if I was trying to get the smallest groups on paper for chits and giggles, I'm going to take 3 fouling shots and document the drift just to see how consistent the movement of POI is with my chosen reloads.

edit: The other thing I want to do is document the drift with a cold barrel versus a warm barrel, since the rifle will be my coyote poker.
 
Last edited:
maynard said:
Cleaning is over-rated. If this is a hunting rifle, every one of those first 3 shots would have killed or at least scared the #### out of a even the smallest critter at 100 yards.
During competition I always wonder why guys will clean their barrels like crazy every night, then shoot 1-5 fouling shots to make it shoot POA again. Sorry to pick on the F'ers here.
Most barrels will go a long way before the groups open up and need to be cleaned. I had one barrel that had over 800 rounds down the barrel (still won the weekend agg) before I cleaned it. And the only reason I did clean it was because I had 2 big matches coming up.
Click to expand...
Your barrel will tell you when it's time.
 
You have to get to know your barrel.

One rifle I shot a lot with and cleaned often, required one fouler which was precisely .200 thou low of the next 5 at 100 yards. If I was short of ammo I could count on that...
 
surfclod said:
Its been a few years since I was into precision shooting mode & mindset so forgive me if this is an elementary question.



However I am wondering how many shots a person ought to take (out of a clean cold bore) before you get serious about measuring groups???


And.....part II of the question;

............................ will a factory barrel potentially require more rounds fired than decent quality aftermarket (that has been hand lapped) before it "settles in"???



This comes to mind because I have been testing a newly purchased (used) rifle. Right after I got it I shot about 6 rounds just to zero the scope, (only 3 round groups I know :p but one was 1-1/4", other was 7/8", resting on truck), not a great test but it indicated some sub-MOA potential.

Afterwards I then gave it a thorough cleaning (using a Bore guide, Dewey rod, and Wipeout with Accelerator) and, went to work on the stock. First I stiffened the forearm with a piece of aluminum (to ensure the barrel was truly "free floated") ,and removed some material around the action screws (to ensure the only the recoil lug was bearing, laterally, on the stock) .

A few weeks later, still just using factory ammo, I shot another 6 rounds. (I know, six rounds are statistically insignificant but I am currently in a severe budget crunch:rolleyes:).

Shot #1 -----------1" left
Shot #2------------1" high & 1/4" left
Shot #3------------1/2" high
Shot #4-6----------centered, all touching (5/8" c-c)

So my pipe dream is that I have a factory barrel that is capable of sub-MOA accuracy using factory ammo, but in reality I am wondering how many fouling shots I ought to have down the tube before I consider it a real test???
Click to expand...

Quality match barrels will need less fouling shots to settle down vs a factory barrel IN GENERAL....

If you can confirm that it takes 4 shots to get the bullet back on track, you have your answer. Now keep shooting and see what happens from a FOULED BORE.

From a cold dirty bore, does the first shots go into the center? or does it still need a few rds to settle down? ie.. does this pattern repeat regardless of bore condition?

Now you have to add the question of barrel temp stability, assume you are shooting in sub zero temps right now? Maybe what you are seeing has nothing to do with fouling but getting the barrel up to temp?

No 1 answer for it all... keep good notes... look for patterns wrt to shooting conditions.

KNOW what your barrel is going to do and when.

Jerry
 
Thanks for the replies.

I will have to see how this barrel acts over the next while and keep note of where the rounds go in the various circumstances (cold clean bore, cold dirty bore and how long without cleaning before accuracy degrades).

Its been a few years but I seem to recall only firing one fouling shot with my Shilen barrelled rig before it was ready to print tiny groups. Honestly don't recall how the factory barrel in that gun shot in regard to foulers. I do know the factory barrel needed to be cleaned regularly to keep accurate, after that I developed the habit of cleaning every 75-100 rounds (depending on how busy I was in the gopher patch). Kept that regime even when I got the new barrel.
 
The most important part of the equation is the cleaning regimen employed. If one employs a strong chemical cleaner to disolve and remove all vestiges of copper from the bore, it is quite likely some fouling shots may be required before the copper "wash" is restored and the barrel settles down. This wash has no appreciable dimension and is molecular in nature. This is different from serious copper fouling which is a build-up of copper in the bore. This is dimensionally measurable and has an adverse effect on the bullet as it passes over it. If a barrel is not accumulating a measurable plating of copper, the cleaning method can be much less aggressive. The time-tested method os using a brush with Hoppes #9 or some other powder solvent, followed by a couple of dry patches, is enough to keep the barrel shooting. This will remove powder fouling and carbon but will leave some copper behind. This barrel will probably not need a fouling shot.. My best barrels would put the first shot near enough to the middle of the group that I could shoot a respectable group including the first shot or I could use the first shot as a sighter and use it as a reliable gauge of wind conditions. If a barrel didn't allow me to do this, I could never have much confidence in the barrel.
The best barrel I ever shot was a Hart which I installed for a customer. When I went out to test it, I fired one shot, wiped it with a patch dampened with Hoppes and inspected it, no copper so I fired another shot and did the same thing then fired a third. These three shots went into .061". I brushed it and ran two dry patches through and fired five shots, no foulers. The group measured right at .125. Brushed and patched again and the next five went into .093". Now that's a good barrel! I( should have kept that one for myself! Instead, I picked a barrel which was a fouling pig and struggled for half the season until I pulled it off and replaced it.
 
6MT said:
I think each barrel is different. My factory Remington takes around 5 to 10 to get some copper in it. My match grade barrels, a little less.
Click to expand...
My factory remington 5r after about 1700 rounds, and actually cleaning every bit of copper out (5 days of wipe out soaking/patching) it took 25 rounds to get consistent results. I mean from like 2"-1" groups to 0.5", it was crazy how big of a difference that made.
 
Very smooth barrels often have nearly nothing for fouling once the throat is shot in. Somewhat rougher barrels usually need quite a few shots to settle down and start shooting their best. One doesn't have anything in it, and the other needs it put back in.....................sort of makes you wonder why you'd want to clean either one. If its about preservation, I have to wonder why you would want to preserve a heavily fouling barrel at all?
 
As steel quality available to most barrel makers varies over time we go in cycles. In 2009 to 2010 there was a change in the steel quality available overseas. Many top manufacturers had some issues in the finished product. Over time the quality has improved a bit but also the manufactures have adjusted techniques to machine the steel they have to work with to achieve the product they need to produce winning barrels.
A great after market barrel often needs 1 or no fouling shots and fouls little over long strings...properly built will hold zero over consecutive rounds and foul minimally.
A very well known barrel maker has described to me that there is a balance to the bore being smooth enough to not grab too much copper and carbon but rough enough not to create too much friction.....like a finely pebbled surface of a curling rink versus a glass table top. Slight carbon residue in a small porous distribution actually reduces friction and increases lubrication. Too smooth of a surface doesn't always mean less copper fouling and friction.... There is a balance and an art to barrel making that I have very limited knowledge in this area; this is from a very well known and respectable source-and makes sense to me.
You can get lucky and get a factory barrel that works very well, cleans easy, fouls little and has cold bore near zero every time ....but its rare.
One or 2 fouler shots is reasonable on a factory rifle.....and worst case, maybe for the first 100-125 rounds of a quality aftermarket barrel that is a bit rough or unfortunately needs a bit of a break-in...more than that is IMO something that can be improved- yes it costs money but we have to pay to play:)
If a barrel doesn't settle in after 4-5 sessions of shooting / cleaning then it is when we cut our losses and put on a new barrel - barrels are a consumable - considering what we all spend on our actions / stocks / optics / ammunition / targets / gear....barrels are cheap.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom